I'm confused

by NickL 25 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  ianao

  Hello NickL.

  Welcome to the board. Hope you enjoy your stay.

  Do they have the absolute truth? Possibly not yet. But who else comes even close?

  Well, according to the fraternal order of American Freemasons, they have been receiving "new light" and using God's name for much much longer than you or even the Bible Students. Of course, that is a dogmatic belief of a Mason. But it is YOUR dogmatic belief that JWs have "truth", or close to it (which is very refreshing, BTW).

  Edited by - ianao on 21 January 2001 23:22:39
• 

  Deacon

  Your confused?

  Not as confused as me.....why are you posting under two names?
• 

  larc

  Nickle,

  Under your other nome, DF, you said that you had done your own research, and it was not convincing to you. What was the research you did? What did you read? I am sure that many folks here could provide you with many research sources that you would find highly stimulating.
• 

  thinkers wife

  Welcome whoever you are. Maybe you could tell us a little about yourself briefly and succinctly. Then we will respond in kind.
  TW
• 

  TR

  NickL,

  2 Jehovah told Ninevah through Jonah that he was going to destroy the city .....then he did'nt. Was that a lie ? Nope. Does it "prove" that Jonah was not being used by Jehovah?? Hardly.

  
  
  I think you should re-read Jonah's account. The WTS has had no direct communication with Jehovah, by their own admission. Jonah, on the other hand, was told by God what would happen to Ninevah. Jonah was also told by God WHYhe was NOT going to what he told Jonah.

  So, your argument has no merit.

  TR
• 

  NickL

  So many to reply to ...so little time.
  TR and Martini
  Did you read my post in its entirety?
  Jonah prophesied something that Jehovah did not do. Someone here said that act qualifies a prophet as false. I was merey pointing out that it is not impossible for the WBTS to do the same as Jonah, and still be viewd as God appointed. BTW the WBTS never claimes to be a prophet.
  Thinkers wife.
  I was bap at age 11 , jailed for the truth at age 17, Elder age 26, International convention and circuit assembly speaker regularly since age 23, made a stupid mistake over a very brief period of time, this made me irrational and unable to think straight, I was disfellowshipped and here I am. Longing with all my heart for the warmth and closeness of the brotherhood, I remember so clearly.
  Deacon ( be confused no more )
  I wrote under Nickl and hten thought it only fair to id myself as Df'd so some would have the right to ignore my comments if their conscience dictated so.
• 

  trevor

  Hi nickL,

  In answer to your question 'what part should the WTS play in our lives' - Their is no confusion in my mind - the answer is NONE AT ALL.

  They have had 100 years to prove whether of not they are being guided by God and have done so. They are utterly discreditd and branded as the false prophet. People like H.G.Wells never claimed to be spirit appointed but he knew far better than the WTS what the future held.

  Let the blind lead the blind and they will both fall in to a pit. Have I developed a 'spirit of independence?' - you bet - and proud of it. (before a fall did you say? O
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  trevor
• 

  thinker

  NickL,
  You said:

  BTW the WBTS never claimes to be a prophet.

  
  Then, please explain these quotes.
  1943. Watch Tower March 15, 1943. (p. 127). "This is not giving any credit to the magazine's publishers, but to the great Author of the Bible with its truth and prophecies, and WHO NOW INTERPRETS ITS PROPHECIES. He is that who makes possible the material that is published in the columns of this magazine."

  Who does Watch Tower say is God's channel for instruction and prophecy? According to Watch Tower, where can we read God's prophecies?

  943. In 1943 Watch Tower President Nathan H. Knorr and Vice President Frederick Franz gave the following testimony under oath in a court of law in the case of Olin Moyle v. WTB&TS. (p.866) Olin Moyle was a member of the Watch Tower legal staff who sued Watchtower for libel. (Olin Moyle won his case.)

  "The testimony of Vice President Frederick Franz given under oath....

  Q. At any rate, Jehovah God is now the editor of the paper is that right? F. Franz: He is today the editor of the paper.

  Q. How long has he been editor of the paper? F. Franz: Since its inception he has been guiding it.

  Q. Even before 1931? F. Franz: Yes sir.

  The testimony of President Nathan Knorr given under oath.

  Q. But you don't make any such statement, that you are subject to correction in your Watch Tower papers do you? N. Knorr: Not that I recall.

  Q. In fact, it set forth directly as God's Word, isn't it? N. Knorr: Yes, as his word.

  Q. Without any qualifications whatsoever? N. Knorr: That is right."

  1972. Watch Tower March 15, 1972. "There is a real need today for someone to speak as a true representative of God. Is there someone who can bring the truth of God's Word to the people, letting them know what is ahead and what they can do for safety and survival?" The Watch Tower article then tells of how Ezekiel was commissioned by God to be his messenger and prophet and then continues... "Who was willing to undertake this monumental task as Jehovah's "servant"? Was there anyone to whom Jehovah's heavenly "chariot" could roll up and whom it could confront? More accurately, was there ANY GROUP on whom Jehovah would be willing to bestow the commission TO SPEAK AS A "PROPHET" IN HIS NAME, as was done toward Ezekiel back there in 613 B.C.E.? It is important to every individual on earth to identify the GROUP that JEHOVAH HAS COMMISSIONED as his "servant" or messenger. We must recognize and understand the warning that he brings. We need to take action on the warning to safeguard our lives, for they are in a danger as grave as that of the lives of Jerusalem's citizens as that city neared destruction. For this reason forthcoming issues of The Watch Tower will further discuss the identity and work of Jehovah's commissioned messenger as revealed in His vision to Ezekiel."

  1972. Watch Tower April 1, 1972. "A third way of coming to know Jehovah God is through his representatives. In ancient time he sent prophets as his special messengers. While these men foretold things to come, they also served the people by telling them of God's will for them at that time, often also warning them of dangers and calamities. So does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come? This question can be answered in the affirmative. Who is this prophet? God had a prophet to warn them. THIS "PROPHET" WAS NOT ONE MAN, BUT WAS A BODY OF MEN AND WOMEN. IT WAS THE SMALL GROUP OF FOOTSTEP FOLLOWERS OF JESUS CHRIST, KNOWN AT THAT TIME AS INTERNATIONAL BIBLE STUDENTS. Today they are known as Jehovah's Christian witnesses. They are still preaching a warning, and have been joined and assisted in their commissioned work by hundreds of thousands of persons who have listened to their message with belief. OF COURSE, IT IS EASY TO SAY THAT THIS GROUP ACTS AS A "PROPHET" OF GOD. IT IS ANOTHER THING TO PROVE IT. THE ONLY WAY THAT THIS CAN BE DONE IS TO REVIEW THE RECORD. WHAT DOES IT SHOW?" Jehovah's Witnesses today make their declaration of the good news of the Kingdom UNDER ANGELIC DIRECTION AND SUPPORT. AND SINCE NO WORD OR WORK OF JEHOVAH CAN FAIL, FOR HE IS GOD ALMIGHTY, the nations will see the fulfillment of what these witnesses say as directed from heaven. Yes, the time must come shortly that the nations will have to know that really a "prophet" of Jehovah was among them."

  Who does Watch Tower CLEARLY identify as God's ONLY prophet? Who does Watch Tower say is the one who guides and directs it?

  1973. Watch Tower. July 1, 1973. (p. 402) "In this edition Watch Tower again stated that they are THE ONLY ORGANIZATION ON EARTH THAT UNDERSTANDS THE "DEEP THINGS OF GOD!"

  thinker
• 

  Frenchy

  Dfshipped
  You said (and I quote) “BTW the WBTS never claimes to be a prophet.”

  Thinker posted some very interesting information that should give you reason to reconsider what you said. Here is some more, straight from the publications

  w72 3/15 189 Wanted-a Messenger
  Was there anyone to whom Jehovah’s heavenly “chariot” could roll up and whom it could confront? More accurately, was there any group on whom Jehovah would be willing to bestow the commission to speak as a “prophet” in His name, as was done toward Ezekiel back there in 613 B.C.E.? …For this reason forthcoming issues of The Watchtower will further discuss the identity and work of Jehovah’s commissioned messenger as revealed in His vision to Ezekiel.
  The next Issue:
  w72 4/1 197 'They Shall Know that a Prophet Was Among Them' A third way of coming to know Jehovah God is through his representatives…So, does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come?
  IDENTIFYING THE “PROPHET” (Subheading)
  These questions can be answered in the affirmative. Who is this prophet? …Jehovah did not let the people of Christendom, as led by the clergy, go without being warned that the League was a counterfeit substitute for the real kingdom of God. He had a “prophet” to warn them. This “prophet” was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah’s Christian witnesses… –(Emphasis mine. I especially like the next three sentences!)
  Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a “prophet” of God. It is another thing to prove it. The only way that this can be done is to review the record. What does it show? –End of Quote.
  When things don’t go the way they predicted they quickly make the claim that they are not inspired and that they can make errors. But that is ONLY after they have been caught in making FASLE CLAIMS. Please take careful note of the following quote from w80 10/15 17 Execution of the "Great Harlot" Nears

  THE Creator, Jehovah God, knows exactly what will take place in the future. He is “the One telling from the beginning the finale.” (Isa. 46:10) Being “perfect in knowledge,” he knows the details about the “finale” of this system of things at the coming “great tribulation.” (Job 37:16; Matt. 24:21) Because he is a God of love, he reveals enough of these details to those who serve him loyally that they can be properly informed, upbuilt and protected. The Bible states: “The Sovereign Lord Jehovah will not do a thing unless he has revealed his confidential matter to his servants the prophets.”— (Emphasis mine. Do you see how the emboldened text is carefully worded so as to let you know that “those who serve him loyally” is quickly defined as “his servants the prophets”?)
  2 Thus, God gives his humble servants special knowledge that others do not have. As the apostle Paul said: “This wisdom not one of the rulers of this system of things came to know . . . For it is to us God has revealed them through his spirit.” (1 Cor. 2:8-10) Having advance knowledge from Jehovah, his servants are equipped—indeed, commissioned, by God—to herald throughout the world the warning of this system’s approaching end, along with the comforting message of the new order… –(Emphasis mine.)—End of Quote.
  Of course whenever any of this special knowledge proves to be false the claim will be made that it was human error. So let me ask you outright: Does the Society point out, in advance, what material in the publications is special knowledge and which is merely human reasoning subject to fallacy? Tell me, for example, where in the article appearing in :w57 6/15 370 Overseers of Jehovah's People, “It is vital that we appreciate this fact and respond to the directions of the “slave” as we would to the voice of God, because it is His provision.” , does it suggest that they are only humans and capable of error?

  -Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
• 

  neyank

  Hi thinker,
  Thank's for your research and posting it for us.
  It never ceases to amaze me how after all that is written in the WTS' own publications about them being the mouthpiece of God, about them being The Faithfull & Discreet Slave, about them being under angelic direction how the JWs can defend them and say that they (WTS) never claimed to be prophets. Never claimed to be perfect.
  I thought that the JWs, at least for me, were JWs because they loved God. Because they wanted to know Gods truth.
  When the society can print certain things and make the claim that it's "new light" from God and later that "new light" is changed into "newer light" how can the R&f Jw close their eyes to this obvious lie? The claim that it's from God?
  neyank