Revelation 11:1-4

by Smitty 24 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Smitty

  Good question BJC,
  Measuring does not denote something is wrong. No, it doesn't. Look at Revelation 21. It speaks of New Jerusalem being measured,

  "And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west. The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. The angel who talked with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city, its gates and its walls. The city was laid out like a square, as long as it was wide. He measured the city with the rod and found it to be 12,000 stadia in length, and as wide and high as it is long. He measured its wall and it was 144 cubits thick, by man's measurement, which the angel was using. The wall was made of jasper, and the city of pure gold, as pure as glass.
  19 The foundations of the city walls were decorated with every kind of precious stone. The first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third chalcedony, the fourth emerald, the fifth sardonyx, the sixth carnelian, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst. The twelve gates were twelve pearls, each gate made of a single pearl. The great street of the city was of pure gold, like transparent glass. I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

  But you still haven't answered my question. Is it earthly or heavenly?
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  Will Power

  Hi Smitty is the restaurant still going?

  You ask: In other words, this temple we're speaking of has to meet one main criterion. It must reflect the pattern of the original tabernacle. Would you not agree? It also must have a Most Holy, a Holy and a Curtain that separates them? Right? Then, we must see a High Priest, sub-priest and sin offerings being made in behalf of a people. Right? So, does it exist today? Or is this speaking of a future temple here on earth, the old Jewish temple or The Heavenly Temple? Any takers?

  Well, I don't know but I could give a couple of answers and this is not anything I've read anywhere etc, etc.

  The God of the Old Testament seems to teach man how to behave, be strong, acquire morals & ethics in a way that was needed because of the lack of education, values, etc & the belief in gods & idols was so much a part of the history of the times.

  sidebar: I always wondered, if those old guys of the bible had lived for so long, you'd have thought that adam & eve's storys about Paradise, God, "in the beginning" would have been preserved a little better since the stories would have been passed through the family lines with each generation having a fairly accurate great-great-grandfather account.

  So the God of the OT gave such detailed instructions, 631 commandments, (later whittled down to 10 for the non-jew), how to build the ark, (both of them), and the temple which must be exact (this I think was so that not just any _______ - insert 3 jewish boy names could go out and build them & be "in charge" and possibly get things wrong. The holy of the holies in this temple was restricted to the high priests because they supposedly were handed down the secrets from the prophets about its use, rules, and since they believed this was as close to God as you could get, where everything had to be just perfect.

  Enter Jesus. Still speaking in parables so that they could understand (God is above human understanding because he is not human remember!).
  He trusts his apostles with the meanings behind the parables since they will be the ones to go on and teach. He explains some high priests that the temple is his body to which He will raise up on the third day. (See quote above)
  He speaks of "knowing the Father", Being One with God, etc. This fits the body = temple and the most holy inside.

  sidebar: Before Vatican II, when catholic masses were in latin, the holy tabernacle which held the symbolic bread of Jesus - the perfect sacrifice - was kept behind, out of sight. The priest would do things in hiding, like the jewish commands except they used the bread & wine as the sacrifice, not burnt offerings. After Vatican II, over many years of little changes, they brought the tabernacle out (still locked & with curtain cover) the priest now turned around to face, and they dumped the latin.

  So, the symbolism is still alive in the world for the people (esp young ones) who cannot seem to open their heart are just learning and need the visuals to help them along. Once one "gets it" and the Lord enters "Your Temple" their is nothing that can hurt you, i.e., you can read & not be swayed, eat & not be stumbled, celebrate holdidays and not be struck down.

  Then NONE of the little arguments over who was who, when such & such happened, how many this, how big that, you have to do this & that & still more of this MEANS ANYTHING. (insert the bible quote that fits this) That is why Jesus said, come to me my load is light. so something like that. Once your heart is filled & the Spirit of God is in your temple, you have a guide 24/7 and all the commandments are written there, the most important one being "do unto others...." which thank goodness shows how wrong shunning is and that helps when one is looking for "christians" to fellowship with.

  Just my 2 cents. Be kind, I am not a sola scripture person. (too dangerous)
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  bjc2012

  Smitty,

  Please reread my post. It is an earthly temple being measured.

  I agree, measuring does not mean that something is wrong, but it is the means by which the determination is made whether everything is as it should be or are there problems. In this case, serious failures were uncovered by the measuring. In Revelation 21, the temple is again measured and it meets God's standard. The trampling has accomplished its purpose.

  bjc
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  Will Power

  P.S.
  seeing the descriptions in rev about the new city that descends out of heaven (heaven & earth have already passed away) the city is as described in above post. This seems to use everything that is the most brilliant that man can think of to describe the utter beauty & "heavenly" or "paradise like" vision of what being in God's presence will be. Still indescribable, a dimension unknown to man since no one has seen God's glory and lived, since He & the Lamb are the light - no sun, moon etc. - This I think is the "experience" of life after death, sheer joy, utopia put into words so humans can get excited about it, and HOPE for it.

  sidebar: funny when you see a tropical island you call it paradise, yet the beauty of the middle east, mediterranean, egypt, etc without the years of civilization must have been equally as breath taking.
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  Smitty

  Remember, this temple has to reflect the same pattern of the original tabernacle. The WT does not meet this criteria. No, they don't. By no means possible. They can't. No way. No most holy, no holy, no priest, no, no, no, etc. The temple mentioned in Revelation 11 is both in heaven and on earth. The Holy and Most Holy are Heaven. The courtyard is on earth. The two witnesses only prophecy in the courtyard, on earth. Remember when Jesus was killed, the curtain in the temple was torn into?
  Matt 27:50-52 "And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit. At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life." This symbolized the earthly temple was no longer a valid entrance to the Most holy. Jesus flesh was. Jehovah became the Most Holy. Jesus the High Priest in the manner of Melchizedek. There would be no end to his priestly role. This was the final destination of the Temple. This was the ultimate goal from the beginning. As Revelation 21:22, "I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp."
  No need for another earthly temple. That's why Jehovah says at Eze 43:7, " He said: "Son of man, this is the place of my throne and the place for the soles of my feet. This is where I will live among the Israelites forever. The house of Israel will never again defile my holy name--neither they nor their kings--by their prostitution and the lifeless idols of their kings at their high places."

  It would be out of their reach. Only Jesus could enter the Most Holy.
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  tfs

  Hi Smitty,

  To answer your question above about whether the "Temple" of Rev. 11:1-4 is earthy or heavenly, here's what I would say.

  A close comparison of the "temple" spoken of in Ezekiel's vision and the one mentioned in Revelation 21 and 22, shows it to be very, very similar so far as the "mission" of both temples are concerned. This similarity could be helpful to arriving at a conclusion on the matter. Why not examine and closely scrutinize the similarities? If we do we see,

  Both temples have:

  1) a powerful "river of life" flowing forth from it. A "double torrent" of truth-sustaining "waters" that serve as a source of spiritual nourishment for the living things around it.

  The "rivers of life" are described this way,

  "Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb through the middle of the street of the city. On either side of the river is the trees of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, producing its fruit each month, and the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations." (Rev. 22:1,2 NRSV)

  Compared with,

  "Then he brought me back to the entrance of the temple; there, water was flowing from below the threshold of the temple toward the east (for the temple faced east); and the water was flowing down from below the south end of the threshold of the temple, south of the altar...As I came back, I saw on the bank of the river a great many trees on the one side and on the other. ..On the banks on both sides of the river, there will grow all kinds of trees for food. Their leaves will not wither nor their fruit fail, but they will bear fresh fruit every month, because the water for them flows from the sanctuary. Their fruit will be for food, and their leaves for healing." (Ezekiel 47:1,7,12 NRSV)

  2) Upon the embankments of the powerful "river of life", both descriptions have miraculous "trees of life" that

  (a) produce regular supply of "fruit" for "each month",

  (b) and "leaves" that have a "curing" or "healing" effect upon the inhabitants partaking of it.

  These "trees" are called the "trees of life" and remind us of the "tree of life" found within the original "Garden of Eden". (Gen. 3:22, 24)

  "Blessed are those who wash their robes so that they will have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by the gates." (Rev. 22:14 NRSV)

  Judging from the above, we see both temples are very similar in purpose, providing "food" in the form of healthy "fruit" monthly, regularly, and providing "leaves" which are for the express purpose of "healing the nations." (Rev. 22:2 NRSV)

  3) Also, it appears both Temples had a PREVIOUS existence where gross sin was practiced, an abomination and "fornication", and forceably had a "curse" from God imposed upon it. This is not so easy to see at first. But here is where Rev. 11:1-4 becomes very important in describing this previous situation. The "Temple" that did not "measure" up to God's original standards. We see this also in Ezekiel's vision of a temple that did not originally meet God's standards. (Eze. 43:6-10; Rev. 11:1,2; 22:3)

  Therefore, if we say the "temple" you refer to in Revelation 11:1-4, is the same one that is spoken of in Rev. 21, which is quite similar to the one spoken of in Ezekiel's vision, then we must conclude it to be a FUTURE EARTHLY temple of God's making, and not a heavenly one.

  tfs
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  Adonai438

  There are several temples mentioned in the Bible throughout history and in the future. 2 have already existed and been destroyed in Jerusalem and the Bible says that a third will be built before many of the futures prophecies take place. The Jews have been deprived of their temple and their place of sacrifice and dwelling of God for a long time and they are currently preparring & hoping for a 3rd temple. See: http://www.temple.org.il for information & the temple tools/artifacts they are reconstructing for such a purpose. They are also raising the ceromonial cattle for the sacrifices. They recently have sought to re-establish the Levitical lineage to find who can be the priests in the temple.
  Biblically, a third temple will literally be built again here on earth:
  Matt.24:15 says that the abomination will stand in it (that is the image of the beast from Revelations), Dan.9:24-27 & Ezekial 40 both are OT prophecies of it.

  And it will last through Armageddon until after the Millenium. In Rev.2:26-27 & Psalm 2 it says that after the Tribulation & Armageddon the temple will be purified and Christ will rule As King over the nations from Jerusalem.

  Hebrews 8:5 states the earthly is a reflection of the heavenly.

  The earth is destroyed by fire after Satans final defeat
  (2 Peter 3:10-13, Rev.20:9b,11b)which would follow that, that 3rd temple would also be destroyed having been on earth.

  Rev.21:1 has the New Heavens & the New Earth and Rev.21:2-4 is the decent of the NEw Jerusalem (Which Elijah the 3rd pointed out is VERY large ). This is the setting for eternity. gottab go will be back later
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  Smitty

  tfs,
  to many incorrect assumptions in your comparisons.
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  tfs

  Smitty,

  to many incorrect assumptions in your comparisons.

  According to whom? You?

  Where is your scriptural proof that my viewpoint is in error?

  I think my opinion is just as good as yours. Especially since you have offered nothing by way of opinion, and scriptural "proofs" in support of your position, whatever it is.

  You've contributed nothing to this discussion yourself thus far. How come?

  I notice the people here at JW.Com are nice enough to "voice" an opinion. At least they are willing to voice one. Whereas you haven't. You only show yourself to be good at striking down everything that everybody offers to you by way of explanation, and objecting to everything that "doesn't suit you". And yet, you ostensibly have no opinion on the matter, and no scriptural "proof" of your own as to what you personally believe it means.

  So, before you condemn someone elses opinion, how about contributing your own. In other words, "put-up-or-shut-up". That gives us "dummies" a chance to "cross-examine" your thoughts. And to tell you, your opinion is not up to snuff either. (Proverbs 18:17)

  Just something for you to think about.

  tfs
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  logical

  While the temple is on earth, it not of this world. Anything that originates with this world does not originate from God.

  True Christians worship in spirit and truth. They make up the temple.

  This is what I think.

  The temple is measured, there is no indication there is a problem there. However it is the courtyard outside the temple sanctury which is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for 42 months.

  Religions have been given over to the nations. It could be that these are the ones who will the holy city underfoot. This they do already with their blasphemies and hypocrisy, but is it the same thing? I dont know.

  As for the witnesses, I have no idea who they are.