SAB:
The concept of Chastity does not exist in the OT. All the heroes try anr root and rape as many women as possible. Take a look at David and Solomon.
The Truth About Bible Principles: Chastity and Abstinence
by sabastious 83 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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mP
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EntirelyPossible
Sheesh, it's almost like women were considered property that could be bought in the OT, like raping a woman meant you had to pay her family and marry her, kind of like an ancient "you broke it, you bought it" policy for her virginity.
Oh, there were temple prostitutes because men like to get some before they were married, get some strange when they WERE married and have it all be on the up and up. If the hooker works for God, then it's all cool.
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EndofMysteries
Yup, I had seen that fornication was not anywhere in old testament, and the fact they had concubines and many wives. And it's strange how the old testament seems more strict, yet nothing about that.
I think also gluttony, the greek word may have meant overeater of meat vs just fat.
Worth looking more into. Did Jesus ever say anything about fornication? Or just Paul and apostles in the books after?
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myelaine
dear sabastious...
you said: "To have many simultaneous sexual relationships could also indicate use of sex to progress in some secular manner. I personally don't think the term should be limited to the mixing of commerce and sex. There is a broader principle to be found within society's general rejection of prostitution and it most certainly involves a religious reverence for the act"...
the pursuit of chastity and abstinence is, at its core, a christian desire to be Holy and "set apart" like the God that is worshipped. when the goal is chastity or abstinence the strict designation fornication or prostitution wouldn't matter.
sabastious do you favor a return so to speak to a "modern roman" society where the government and society is endoctinated to be permissive of an individuals personal desires...regardless. history shows that someone or a group that does take a stand for certain principles or "sets themselves apart" from the predominant societal "movement" draws negative attention they aren't tolerated (think nero et al) ...hey that situation has started to unfold in our society today hasn't it?
honestly, listening to you, sometimes I wonder if I am witnessing a beast trying to talk like a lamb or a christian in the middle of an epic fail. rev. 13:3-10
love michelle
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sabastious
Not all cultures and religions agree with the above sentiment. Some may consider prostitution a showing of reverance for sex and procreation. Others may not be all that hung up on sex and monogamy. Quite a few cultures, even today, don't hold monogamy as very high on the list of priorities. They don't necessarily view sex as a reverent act, neither to they hold it as some kind of immoral act. It just is. Even when it comes to the definition of fatherhood and kinship, different groups have different ways of defining this. Sometimes men are financially and socially responsible to their sisters' children, while fathers may have affection, but put their resources into their own sisters' children. Not all kin group are constructed in the Judeo/Christian tradition. And in those cases, they may view sex very differently.
I don't dispute that many cultures view sex differently, but that doesn't change what civilization has to say about it which is that prostitution is morally wrong. I understand that morality is subjective to time and culture, but when you sample civilizations such as the Western Civilization you will find that prostitution is generally considered immoral. What Western Civilization has to say on the matter is of utmost importance because it's a melting pot of cultures. Even with our genetic and cultural diversity if you were from a culture that advocates the selling of one's body for personal gain of any kind you will have to find a crevice of Western Society to dwell within, because you will be an outcast for the most part.
A good example is the concept of having sex with a secular superior to get a special favor or even promotion of some kind. In the Western World this is generally considered "sleazy" behavior and many would go as far as to call it a form of prostitution. This is the principle that has made it's way into modern society. We see the evolution of that principle within the pages of the Torah and in Revelation.
My point is that modern society qualifies sexual relations and positions it into moral structures just as the ancient world did. However in the future, which is us, we still look at sex with a respect at the very least and generally look down upon people who show none for it. As someone who has sex with their boss for personal gain is generally looked down upon.
-Sab
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sabastious
the pursuit of chastity and abstinence is, at its core, a christian desire to be Holy and "set apart" like the God that is worshipped. when the goal is chastity or abstinence the strict designation fornication or prostitution wouldn't matter.
sabastious do you favor a return so to speak to a "modern roman" society where the government and society is endoctinated to be permissive of an individuals personal desires...regardless. history shows that someone or a group that does take a stand for certain principles or "sets themselves apart" from the predominant societal "movement" draws negative attention they aren't tolerated (think nero et al) ...hey that situation has started to unfold in our society today hasn't it?
You can still morally set yourself apart and still engage in sexual activity before marriage. I won't deny that such an endeavor is a challenge and has it's pitfalls, but with the right strategy coupled with modern technology one can successfully achieve a morally acceptable position before God. Just because one falls for someone else doesn't mean they are prostituting themselves. There is a line and it's not a peice of paper and it certainly doesn't involve the government. Some people don't get married for financial/tax reasons, but still feel betrothed. No man, or woman, can tell them they are not. With love only two people and the cosmos is required.
honestly, listening to you, sometimes I wonder if I am witnessing a beast trying to talk like a lamb or a christian in the midst of an epic fail. rev. 13:3-10
I am a beast and so are you. Our tailbones are actually all we have left from our mammal ancestors. I feel Christian, do you feel qualified to judge otherwise?
-Sab
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sabastious
Please address the points ive made.
Genesis 38:16-18 is pretty damning evidence against any kind of chastity being practiced by the ancient Hebrews. It appears, as EP says, that women were regarded as objects. I personally don't understand how there could have been "temple prostitutes" because the Torah explicitly prohibits prostitution.
Deut 23:18 You must not bring the earnings of a female prostitute or of a male prostitute into the house of the Lord your God to pay any vow, because the Lord your God detests them both.
The word translated "earnings" in the NIV denotes a price of some kind. The account in Genesis 38 shows that the "price" Judah paid was a young goat which was merely an item off the top of his head. "Earnings" would indicate some sort of organization and therefore it may be "sexual establishments" that are being depicted here as opposed to the "independent contractor" approach with Judah in Genesis 38. This would make sense since prostitution operations ("pimping") are pretty rough and are rightly considered a bad thing.
-Sab
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myelaine
dear sabastious...
you said: "My point is that modern society qualifies sexual relations and positions it into moral structures just as the ancient world did. However in the future, which is us, we still look at sex with a respect at the very least and generally look down upon people who show none for it."...
chaste conduct toward someone who you regard as your husband/wife has imposed limits...you can't expect God to regard you as having entered into the bonds of marriage (without the paper) if you are still promiscous or a fornicator. neither should anyone expect society in general to loosen its standards to accommidate a new sexual freedom that is being imposed on them.
well, actually the indwelling Holy Spirit assures a christian that His presence within makes them a new creature...and...1 corinthians 2:15.
...Sabasteous, I included the scripture from revelation as a warning to you to not get carried away with the beast's (and his kingdom/societies)prevailing tide which IS in opposition to the Holiness of God...
love michelle
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myelaine
here are the lyrics of a popular song that happens to be playing on my radio right now:
Hide your heart under the bed and lock
Your secret drawer. Wash the angels
From your head won't need them anymore.
Love is a demon and you're the one he's
Coming for. Oh my Lord.
He's bringing sweet salvation, let temptation
Take him in. He's every fear and every hope
And every sing sin. He's the universe the
Love you've been imagining. Oh my Lord.
Oh my Lord. Oh my Lord.
And I am ashes. I am Jesus. I am precious.
Could I be your girl. Could I be your girl.
Put a chair against the door and turn the lights
Down low. Write a letter to yourself
No-one will ever know. Tell them all about
The girl who just refused to fall. Oh my Lord.
He is the very breath you feel inside your lungs at night.
He is the bitter wind who's drying up your appetite.
He is the darkness that seeps into your fading light.
Oh my Lord. Oh my Lord.
And I am ashes. I am Jesus. I am precious. Could I be
Your girl. Could I be your girl. I am worthless
Sounds compared to all your perfect words.
Could I be your girl. Could I be your girl.
Wash the angels from your hair won't need them
Anymore. Hide your heart under the bed and lock
Your secret drawer. Love is the demon and you're
The one he's coming for. Oh my Lord. Oh my Lord.
Could I be your girl. Could I be your girl.if this isn't indoctrination for the future, I don't know what is...
love michelle
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sabastious
Michelle are you made of sugar, spice and everything nice?
-Sab