by Joker10 126 Replies latest jw friends
JWs can only dream of being as successful as Mormons.
Not only are Mormons less reliant on poorer developing countries to fuel growth - they have their own presidential candidate, and even their own hit broadway musical!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVJgmp2Tc2s
Oh, they also have tithing, which protects them to some degree from the financial difficulties now being experienced by the Watchtower.
Cedars
Mormons are certainly better at appearing mainstream than JWs. But their distortion of history for example is far far worse.
Not only are Mormons less reliant on poorer developing countries to fuel growth
That's some positive spin right there. In fact Mormons are much less represented anywhere outside of America than JWs. Something like only 10% of their worldwide membership is outside of the Americas. Apart from Britain their presence is negligible in Europe. But nice try painting this as success.
slimboyfat
That's some positive spin right there.
Not really, because you've ignored my earlier reminder that JWs are virtually absent in a huge swathe of the Earth's surface that represents almost a third of the world's population. If you aspire to preaching the good news throughout the entire inhabited Earth, that level of failure is unacceptable. Simply being more widely spread than Mormons should be no consolation.
But nice try painting this as success.
I wasn't painting it as a success. I was illustrating that JWs do not have as much in common with Mormons as you would suggest. If anything, Mormons are more successful and, in my opinion, have brighter prospects for long-term survival as a religion.
Cedars
One thing that I found living in a large community of Mormons, that it is part of their beliefs to have as many children as possible because they are giving a spirit in heaven the opportunity to live on earth and successfully meet God's standarrds and upon death return to heaven and rule over their own universe. I was told that God never meant for humans to live forever on earth, that it was only a testing place, that Adam and Eve were given 2 conflicting laws, be fruitful and not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and bad (knowledge of how to have children), that they had to break one to keep the other. Most LDS families I knew had 5 to 20 children. Given that I can see that converting one person or one couple could equal a lot more members than just 1 per convert, 5 per convert?
While not a mandate for jws, it is getting to be that new members are children of jws or family members, not people from the outside. The COBOE told the congregation that in the last 10 years, the only baptisms were those of children of jws, except one and that person was df'd now. What about your area, your old or current congregation, your circuit/distrct?
There is a definite lack of feeling responsibility among many jws to actually be effective, develop "interest," and study with people. I used to think if there was a quota of bringing in 2 people besides children as baptized jws to qualify for "eternal life" that more jws would be more motivated. Sort of this:
(2 Thessalonians 3:10) . . .In fact, also, when we were with YOU, we used to give YOU this order: “If anyone does not want to work, neither let him eat.”
JWs are much more evenly spread than Mormons. There are of course areas where JWs are poorly represented, but can you think of any other religious group than is more evenly spread in line with global population than JWs? I can't. Maybe the Adventists or some Pentecostal groups come close. That would be really interesting to find out actually. It should be easy enough to do because a measure of spread would be simple to devise and figures for such groups are generally obtainable.
I understand the reasons for thinking that Mormons should have better prospects for growth than JWs, but the past couple of decades has not bourne this out. Ironically the fact that the Mormons are going mainstream, although ostensibly their biggest achievement, may actually be behind their very poor activity rates in recent years. When you keep claiming you are just another Christian denomination some people start believing you, and it just isn't as exciting any more.
slimboyfat
JWs are much more evenly spread than Mormons. There are of course areas where JWs are poorly represented, but can you think of any other religious group than is more evenly spread in line with global population than JWs? I can't.
Guiding your followers to eternal life on paradise earth as righteous worshippers of God isn't a competition between religions as to which is the most evenly spread. Once again, you blur the lines between the human criteria for success and the aspirations of an organization purporting to be unique in enjoying divine guidance and favor.
When you keep claiming you are just another Christian denomination some people start believing you, and it just isn't as exciting any more.
Hardly your most compelling piece of reasoning ever.
Cedars
Of course I am not in any way claiming that JWs are guiding their "followers to eternal life on paradise earth". I am saying that they are doing better than most other religious groups in terms of growth and global spread. You seem incapable of responding to that specific point. All I get are hysterical responses about this not proving that they are God ordained. I never said it proved any such thing!
I may not have expressed it well, but it is a well known sociological observation that religious groups tend to prosper the stricter they are and if they are in some degree of tension with society. To the extent that Mormons moderate and become more mainstream than JWs it may be reasonable (if counterintuitive from a certain perspective) that they will fare worse in terms of members. You should check out the article about Lawson that explains this phenomenon. But there are many articles and books on the 'stricter churches grow faster' thesis.
slimboyfat
All I get are hysterical responses about this not proving that they are God ordained. I never said it proved any such thing!
You are entitled to call my responses "hysterical" if you feel that this gives your arguments greater currency, but I would suggest that they are reasoned and provide balance and perspective for any lurkers who read your comments praising the growth and spread of JWs and say, "Look, even the apostates agree that we are more widely spread than any other religion!" Simply put, I write with one eye on trying to help lurkers see the reality in the context of their faith - you don't.
An example of such balance would be the huge "black hole" stretching from the Atlantic coast in Africa to the Korean peninsula. Of this huge area, representing nearly a third of the global population, all you can say is that JWs are "poorly represented" - even though in at least three countries even the Society admits that there are no witnesses whatsoever. In one country, Bangladesh (which even makes it onto the worldwide report), the ratio is one JW to nearly a million Bangladeshis. "Poorly represented"? You've got to be kidding!
Apart from that, thanks for clarifying your comments on Mormonism becoming mainstream. It will be interesting to see how this pans out for them.
Cedars
I don't think people are dumb. If people are ready to leave the Witnesses they will do so without having to read negative spin about JW statistics. I am not interested in participating in bending the facts 'in the name of the cause'. Such an approach does no one any favours in my view.
I hold two views that you seem to find irreconcilable:
1. That JWs still have better growth and worldwide spread than most other comparable denominations.
2. That their growth is not evidence of divine approval.
I see no tension between those two propositions. It's simply the way it is.
Sure there are lands where there are few or no JWs. I don't dispute that at all, never have. But overall, compared with other religious groups, it is a remarkably evenly spread world religion that continues to grow while many other denominations are in decline.
slimboyfat
I don't think people are dumb. If people are ready to leave the Witnesses they will do so without having to read negative spin about JW statistics.
Firstly, it's not negative spin - it's realism and perspective.
Secondly, you're putting words in my mouth. I don't think lurkers are "dumb". Though I never lurked on this site as an active publisher, I can remember what it is like to be one of them. They are NOT stupid, but they ARE indoctrinated and under the daily influence of a manipulative and damaging cult - something you seem to forget. Under such a state, any morsel of positive spin such as those you instinctively seem to proffer (for some unknown reason) are swallowed up gleefully and used to quench any lingering doubts.
2. That their growth is not evidence of divine approval.
It's a shame lurkers will need to read this far in the thread before they get to that bit.
Cedars
