Questions for witnesses

by sleepy 15 Replies latest jw friends

  • sleepy
    sleepy

    Here's a list of questions I compiled a while ago, for any new ones or lurkers to answer if they can.

    I'm sure theres plenty more that could be added.

    Questions?
    1. GENTILE TIMES.
    a. why do we believe in such a thing as the gentile times? this arises as it is not specifically mentioned in the bible as described by Jehovah’s witnesses.
    b. why do we calculate that they start with the destruction of Jerusalem in 607 b.c.e.? historians place the event in 587 b.c.e. the 607 date is not mentioned in the bible either.
    c. why is the duration calculated the way it is? It involves such thing as a prophetic year of 360 days times by 7 then changing a day for a year then saying these years relate to the modern western calendar of 365 1/4 days.

    2. PROPHECY.
    a. why do we believe you can only understand certain prophecies after the event. if the prophecy can’t be understood properly until after it has happened what purpose does it serve. how can we trust the interpretation of the fulfilment of prophecies that are ambiguous.
    b. Why do we believe prophecies have a hidden or double meaning? there is nothing in the bible that specifically states that some prophecies have double or triple fulfilments the fulfilment of which is usually claimed to be with jw’s in resent or near history.

    3. FAITHFUL AND DISCREET SLAVE.
    a. Why do we believe this is a prophecy about and organisation god will use in the time of the end? why say that this has a meaning extra to an illustration that Jesus was giving about Christians being ready for his return.
    b. Why believe the organisation we now know as Jehovah’s witnesses was selected as the above in 1919? the beliefs of the Russellites or bible students were very different from ours today. They generally thought the slave was Russell Michael the arch angel was the pope that Christ presence began in 1874 and last days in 1799 that the resurrection to heaven began in 1874 used the cross celebrated birthdays and Christmas thought the end of the world would come in 1925 and used pyramidology in time calculations amongst many more things.
    c. If chosen by God why so many beliefs changed? if god is using this organisation why have they had to change so many teachings. These changes have lead to the disillusionment (dates) and even imprisonment (civil service) and death (vaccines and transplants) to many.

    4. TRUTH.
    a. Are organisation or unity more important than truth? must individual witnesses accept and preach things they believe to be false for the sake of unity or loyalty to the organisation?
    b. Is there such thing as present truth? on what basis does the society establish the truth of a matter ? how can something be accepted as defiantly true today but false tomorrow , whilst things that we can’t be sure of ( we need faith ), are still taught as definite truth?

    5. BLOOD.
    a Why is whole blood transfusion not allowed yet nearly all the components that make up blood are ok? Why is it not taught that whole blood transfusions are very rare and that we are allowed nearly all of blood if it is broken into parts. Why is a distinction made between certain parts of blood , what is the basis.
    b. Why are we not allowed to donate blood but are allowed blood fractions from donated blood? This seams hypocritical especially in view of the vast amount of blood that needs to be taken and stored in order to supply the small blood fractions we can use.
    c. Why do we teach blood transfusions are like eating unbled meat? A blood transfusion differs from eating food as it is a transplant and nourishment can not be gained from it. If you were starving doctors would not give you a liver transplant or a blood transfusion. Alcohol and sugar could be injected into your veins as the body can draw nourishment from them from the blood stream. To benefit from blood it would have to go through your digestive system. When you have a transplant does not the organ contain blood?
    The command to Noah says not to eat flesh with the blood in it as the soul was in the blood yet we believe the soul dies with your body .Was this a command not to eat live animals?
    d. Is blood more sacred than life? When people have a blood transfusion they don’ kill the donor like an animal for eating , but the patient may die without the blood . Which is more important the blood or the life?

    6. HISTORY
    a. Why is the organisation not more open about past history? For an organisation that prides itself on truth and honesty why does it not make it easier for people to know its full history with out bias or editing? can it not discuss mistakes made ( which number much more than many think ) and why they went wrong?
    b. Does anyone really know the true history? due to the fact that no one is alive today who remembers the beginning of the org or its early history is it possible to know the motives of such men as Russell , Rutherford and others?

    7. APOSTASY
    a. What happens to people who were disfellowshipped in the past for things we no longer view as false or wrong? Say you had an organ transplant in the past and were disfellowshipped would you now have that annulled?
    b. Would the beliefs of Russell , Rutherford , Knorr or Franz make them what we know consider apostate?
    How come they wrote things in the magazines that were wrong and were not removed when if a publisher promoted wrong beliefs he would be accused of apostasy?
    c. Are you an apostate to God the bible or the organisation? If you disagree with a point the society believes but is not directly stated in the bible are you going against a bible command? In which way does believing that the proof leads to a different conclusion from the society make you an enemy of god?
    d. Why are witnesses discouraged from considering criticism of societies beliefs? How can you establish the validity of a view point without hearing the other side of an argument? What happens when you come across new evidence you hadn’t considered before ? How would you feel about people not listening to your side of the story are they closed minded? Are only the society allowed to look at apostate books , if they don’t how do they know what is in there?

    8 144,00
    a. How many bible students and Jehovah’s witnesses in total have claimed to be anointed? We would need to know this figure and add it to those we know of in the first century plus a estimate of the 1800 years in-between to see if they tally with 144,000.
    b. Why are they considered to be instantly perfect in heaven when those resurrected to earth are not? What is different about the people that go to heaven that allows god to grant everlasting life immediately but those on earth have to endure another test?

  • cellomould
    cellomould

    ORIGIN OF THE UNIVERSE

    Can we really make a logical distinction between:

    (1) The natural universe having no beginning and thus no creator
    (2) God having no beginning and then creating the universe

    Is the latter more supportable? Or is it simply more comfortable?

    good q's Sleepy
    cellomould

    "In other words, your God is the warden of a prison where the only prisoner is your God." Jose Saramago, The Gospel According to Jesus Christ

  • jerome
    jerome

    You really expect to get anwsers to these questions?

    Not in a million posts.

    The Bible is a two edged sword wield it for evil and it you may get hurt.

  • Mr Ben
    Mr Ben

    Sleepy, excellent post.

    If you do not get answers perhaps it is because the answers would make the faithful JW too uncomfortable. Nevertheless, as you say, a number of lurkers may derive great benefit.

    Religion n.
    An organisation designed to promote atheism.

  • You Know
    You Know

    Here's a list of questions I compiled a while ago, for any new ones or lurkers to answer if they can.

    I'm sure theres plenty more that could be added.

    Questions?
    1. GENTILE TIMES.
    a. why do we believe in such a thing as the gentile times? this arises as it is not specifically mentioned in the bible as described by Jehovah’s witnesses.__________

    YK: That expression is found in the KJV in the 21st chapter of Luke. The NWT uses the expression “the appointed times of the nations.” Jesus made reference to a specific period of time that God’s holy place would be dominated by opposing nations of the world.

    b. why do we calculate that they start with the destruction of Jerusalem in 607 b.c.e.? historians place the event in 587 b.c.e. the 607 date is not mentioned in the bible either.___________

    YK: History is not an exact science. It is open to interpretation and even manipulation. The Watchtower has just as much right as the next guy to offer their opinion.

    c. why is the duration calculated the way it is? It involves such thing as a prophetic year of 360 days times by 7 then changing a day for a year then saying these years relate to the modern western calendar of 365 1/4 days.__________

    YK: Our interpretation of the “7 times” of Daniel is based upon Revelation’s own use of a similar prophecies that reveals that 3 ½ times are equal to 1,260 days. That period is also described as 42 months. So it is really just a matter of doubling 1,260.

    2. PROPHECY.
    a. why do we believe you can only understand certain prophecies after the event. if the prophecy can’t be understood properly until after it has happened what purpose does it serve. how
    can we trust the interpretation of the fulfillment of prophecies that are ambiguous._______

    YK: Because certain prophecies have been sealed by the order of Jehovah. That means that it suits his purpose not to reveal certain things until He is ready. Isaiah and Daniel both make reference to God sealing those prophecies. One of the reason Jehovah does that is to force his servants to live by faith. Jesus explained that those disciples of his who are waiting on his arrival are like virgins waiting for the groom to come to the wedding. But when he arrives some of those in expectation don’t have enough oil in their lamps to negotiate the dark path to the wedding feast. So they are left behind. So that parable indicates that Jehovah retains the means to winnow out faithless individual even from those who are otherwise his followers, and a lot of it has to do with how we react as prophecy unfolds in ways we have not anticipated. In the end Jehovah will be vindicated as the Master who foretold everything from beginning to end just as He said he did. And all men will have to confess that they are liars and only Jehovah is true.

    b. Why do we believe prophecies have a hidden or double meaning? there is nothing in the bible that specifically states that some prophecies have double or triple fulfilments the fulfilment of which is usually claimed to be with jw’s in resent or near history. ________

    YK: That’s not true. We can appreciate the layered depth of prophecies by studying how Jesus and the inspired apostles applied them. For example, some events in the ancient past, like Noah’s flood, and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, have prophetic meaning. We know this because Jesus said that his presence would be just as in the days of Noah and Lot. Another example is the destruction of Jerusalem. Jesus foretold that Jerusalem would be surrounded by an army with pointed stakes and that the holy place would be violated by a disgusting thing. Yet, other prophecies in nearly all of the Hebrew prophecies describe a similar attack by a disgusting thing upon Jehovah’s people at the conclusion of the system of things. So the event in the first century merely provide a pattern for thing to come. Another example is the book of Joel. Joel describes momentous events leading directly to the final battle of Armageddon, which Joel describes in the last chapter as occurring on the “low plain of the decision.” Yet, on the day of Pentecost Peter was inspired to announce that the outpouring of Jehovah’s spirit upon his sons and daughters, as described in Joel the 2nd chapter, was fulfilled on that occasion. But nothing else from the book of Joel was fulfilled back in the 1st century, so there is obviously a much grander realization of the prophecies including a Pentecost-like outpouring of spirit. There are in fact hundreds of various aspects of prophecies that can be examined this way, but these few should suffice to prove that we are fully justified in recognizing that nearly all prophecies have more than one application.

    3. FAITHFUL AND DISCREET SLAVE.
    a. Why do we believe this is a prophecy about and organisation god will use in the time of the end? why say that this has a meaning extra to an illustration that Jesus was giving about Christians being ready for his return _________

    YK: In the 12th chapter of Luke Jesus explained that the faithful slave is placed in charge of God’s household. And the slave is judged based upon whether or not he fulfills his assignment to care for the members of God’s household.

    b. Why believe the organisation we now know as Jehovah’s witnesses was selected as the above in 1919? the beliefs of the Russellites or bible students were very different from ours today._______

    YK: That’s not true. None of the fundamental teachings have changed. They have only been refined, which is to be expected.

    They generally thought the slave was Russell Michael the arch angel was the pope that Christ presence began in 1874 and last days in 1799 that the resurrection to heaven began in 1874 used the cross celebrated birthdays and Christmas thought the end of the world would come in 1925 and used pyramidology in time calculations amongst many more things. c. If chosen by God why so many beliefs changed? if god is using this organisation why have they had to change so many teachings. These changes have lead to the disillusionment (dates) and even imprisonment (civil service) and death (vaccines and transplants) to many.________

    YK: The apostles originally had a lot of childish ideas too. Paul used the illustration at Corinthians the 13th chapter about “when I was a babe, I used to speak as a babe…” to illustrate how the congregation goes through a growth process until it reaches maturity. The same process is evident in modern times and when Christ arrives, as an organization at least, we will finally achieve full-grown stature.

    4. TRUTH.
    a. Are organization or unity more important than truth? must individual witnesses accept and preach things they believe to be false for the sake of unity or loyalty to the organisation?_____

    YK: Yes and no. Paul said to observe the oneness of the spirit. So if a Christian believes that what the Society is teaching is wrong on a particular point then they need to be true to their own conscience as far as what they teach in their personal ministry. But, at the same time it is possible and even necessary to hold two contradictory opinions simultaneously, at least until a resolution is obtained. It is not either or. It is not that unless we teach the whole truth and nothing but the truth than our organization is a fraud. That’s not the way it works. What I mean is that Jehovah’s Witnesses can still be Jehovah’s people in spite of error, shortcomings and transgressions. Observing the oneness of the spirit in faith would prevent one with contrary views from disturbing others unnecessarily with his issues. In the end each of us must wrestle with our own angel in order to finally get the blessing Jehovah holds out to us.

    b. Is there such thing as present truth? on what basis does the society establish the truth of a matter ? how can something be accepted as defiantly true today but false tomorrow , whilst
    things that we can’t be sure of ( we need faith ), are still taught as definite truth?______

    YK: That’s a goofy expression. More modestly we should say: ‘according to our current understanding.’

    5. BLOOD.
    a Why is whole blood transfusion not allowed yet nearly all the components that make up blood are ok? Why is it not taught that whole blood transfusions are very rare and that we are allowed nearly all of blood if it is broken into parts. Why is a distinction made between certain parts of blood , what is the basis.___________

    YK: Where does it end? I think the Society made the right call in sidestepping a pharisaic black hole by not ruling on all the minute parts. For example: Blood contains a good bit of salt. Do we then ban table salt? I think the Watchtower decision is more than reasonable

    b. Why are we not allowed to donate blood but are allowed blood fractions from donated blood? This seams hypocritical especially in view of the vast amount of blood that needs to be taken and stored in order to supply the small blood fractions we can use._________

    YK: Your blood doesn’t belong to you. Jehovah claims ownership of it. So it is immoral to give away something that doesn’t belong to us. In the case of fractions that derive from blood, that goes back to each one’s conscience.

    b. Why do we teach blood transfusions are like eating unbled meat? A blood transfusion differs from eating food as it is a transplant and nourishment can not be gained from it. ________

    YK: Taking a transfusion is more analogous to gaffing down a liter of blood. Some people do drink blood as a ritual or even a sacrilege, So it is not just from a nutritional standpoint. The point is the Bible simply says to abstain from blood. Whether one would take blood for nutrition or whatever, it doesn’t matter. Jehovah forbids it, so we are determined to honor his will in the matter.

    The command to Noah says not to eat flesh with the blood in it as the soul was in the blood yet we believe the soul dies with your body .Was this a command not to eat live animals? _______

    No of course not. That’s Ray Franz’s nonsensical empty-headed reasoning. No one in his or her right mind would try to eat a living animal. You would probably get your teeth kicked in if you tried. Jehovah was simply stating that all live belonged to him and that blood represented that life and so must not be used for any purpose.

    d. Is blood more sacred than life? When people have a blood transfusion they don’ kill the donor like an animal for eating , but the patient may die without the blood . Which is more important the blood or the life?_________

    YK: No. But they in effect take something that doesn’t belong to them, but that God claims as his own. Adam and Eve apparently rationalized that taking God’s special fruit wasn’t any big deal---but it was.

    6. HISTORY
    a. Why is the organisation not more open about past history? For an organisation that prides itself on truth and honesty why does it not make it easier for people to know its full history with out bias or editing? can it not discuss mistakes made ( which number much more than many think ) and why they went wrong?_________

    YK: There is no reason to delve into all of that. Everyone is entitled to put their best face forward. Apostates have their own agenda to discredit and cause embarrassment. Our view is: “forget the things behind and stretch forward to the things ahead.”

    b. Does anyone really know the true history? due to the fact that no one is alive today who remembers the beginning of the org or its early history is it possible to know the motives of such men as Russell , Rutherford and others?____________

    YK: I think the Society has given a fairly accurate account of itself. There are simply too many old timers around who know the story for the Wt to do too much embellishment.

    7. APOSTASY
    a. What happens to people who were disfellowshipped in the past for things we no longer view as false or wrong? Say you had an organ transplant in the past and were disfellowshipped
    would you now have that annulled?__________

    YK: I seriously doubt that that has ever happened. Transplants were very rare back when the Society viewed them that way.

    b. Would the beliefs of Russell , Rutherford , Knorr or Franz make them what we know consider apostate? How come they wrote things in the magazines that were wrong and were not removed when if a publisher promoted wrong beliefs he would be accused of apostasy?_________

    YK: You have a very childish view of things. There is room for error. Making mistakes doesn’t mean that one is an apostate. An apostate is one who turns against his brothers and Jehovah.

    c. Are you an apostate to God the bible or the organisation? If you disagree with a point the society believes but is not directly stated in the bible are you going against a bible command?________

    YK: It depends on what you do with your knowledge.

    In which way does believing that the proof leads to a different conclusion from the society make you an enemy of god?________

    YK;Again, it depends on what conclusions you come to and what you do.

    d. Why are witnesses discouraged from considering criticism of societies beliefs? How can you establish the validity of a view point without hearing the other side of an argument?

    YK: Criticism is very one-sided. And the Society shouldn’t have to put itself in the position of constantly defending itself before Jehovah’s Witnesses. That’s not what the faithful slave’s assignment is.

    What happens when you come across new evidence you hadn’t considered before ? How would you feel about people not listening to your side of the story are they closed minded? ________

    YK: The apostate’s side of the story is slanderous and breathes murder against the brothers. The Psalms rightly commend Jehovah’s loyal ones for stopping up their ears to such things. I can say as one who has considered both sides that apostates have absolutely nothing of value.

    Are only the society allowed to look at apostate books , if they don’t how do they know what is in there?_____

    No, we are allowed to read whatever we what. But the Society warns of the danger. Look at yourself. You have read apostate books. Have you been benefited. Perhaps in your imagination you feel that you have been liberated from the evil empire, but in reality you have consented to allow yourself to be robbed of your faith. If apostates have anything of value to share with Jehovah’s Witnesses, please enlighten me. What do you have that all of Jehovah’s Witnesses need?

    8 144,00
    a. How many bible students and Jehovah’s witnesses in total have claimed to be anointed? We would need to know this figure and add it to those we know of in the first century plus a estimate of the 1800 years in-between to see if they tally with 144,000. _______

    YK: LOL. Go for it man!

    b. Why are they considered to be instantly perfect in heaven when those resurrected to earth are not? What is different about the people that go to heaven that allows god to grant everlasting life immediately but those on earth have to endure another test? _______

    YK: You should perhaps read the Christian Greek Scriptures and dump the gospel of Ray Franz in the trash where it belongs? / You Know

  • alamb
    alamb

    "Your blood doesn’t belong to you. Jehovah claims ownership of it. So it is immoral to give away something that doesn’t belong to us. "

    So, by the same rule, wouldn't this mean that taking something that doesn't belong to us or the person who gave it is theft?

    Oh, and what about the scriptural principal of God wanting mercy over a sacrifice? Where does this apply?

  • thinker
    thinker
    YK: History is not an exact science. It is open to interpretation and even manipulation. The Watchtower has just as much right as the next guy to offer their opinion.

    Just because it happens to fit a preconceived idea about 1914 doesn't mean it was manipulated in any way, right?

    YK: That’s not true. None of the fundamental teachings have changed. They have only been refined, which is to be expected.
    Note: Fundamental teachings:
    1. No Hell
    2. Paradise on earth
    3. Jesus was an angel
    Everything else is subject to change and should therefore be a matter of conscience!

    YK: The apostles originally had a lot of childish ideas too. Paul used the illustration at Corinthians the 13th chapter about “when I was a babe, I used to speak as a babe…” to illustrate how the congregation goes through a growth process until it reaches maturity. The same process is evident in modern times and when Christ arrives, as an organization at least, we will finally achieve full-grown stature.
    This excuse could apply to ANY religion!

    YK: Yes and no. Paul said to observe the oneness of the spirit. So if a Christian believes that what the Society is teaching is wrong on a particular point then they need to be true to their own conscience as far as what they teach in their personal ministry. But, at the same time it is possible and even necessary to hold two contradictory opinions simultaneously, at least until a resolution is obtained. It is not either or. It is not that unless we teach the whole truth and nothing but the truth than our organization is a fraud. That’s not the way it works. What I mean is that Jehovah’s Witnesses can still be Jehovah’s people in spite of error, shortcomings and transgressions. Observing the oneness of the spirit in faith would prevent one with contrary views from disturbing others unnecessarily with his issues. In the end each of us must wrestle with our own angel in order to finally get the blessing Jehovah holds out to us.
    ANY religion could be "Jehovah's people in spite of error, shortcomings and transgressions."

    d. Is blood more sacred than life?
    YK: No. But they in effect take something that doesn’t belong to them, but that God claims as his own. Adam and Eve apparently rationalized that taking God’s special fruit wasn’t any big deal---but it was.
    Then there should be no problem with accepting YOUR OWN blood during an operation!
  • Reborn2002
    Reborn2002
    History is not an exact science.

    (Literally rolling on the floor laughing my ass off)

    Oh so I suppose history and the WTS just guessed that whole thing about Christ returning in 1914? Oh its not an exact science so why not generalize it to say the whole decade? Couldve been 1910, couldve been 1919. Better make it 1919 though, that generation that by no means would pass away is dying off sir.

    History is not an exact science so maybe your celebrating the Memorial on the wrong day. After all it isnt exact, so maybe it was Nisan 13 or maybe even Nisan 15. History isnt exact, so apparently we have carte blanche to speculate.

    Oh I almost forgot..

    The Watchtower has just as much right as the next guy to offer their opinion.

    the WT and JW have just as much right to their opinion? Last time I checked it was the only true organization, and God's spirit directed channel, so with divine interpretation and inspiration.. in your very own words you state their opinion? Why would they guess? Shouldnt they know EXACTLY? I dont recall Jesus or any account in the Bible of where a divinely sent message was received incorrectly or they had to speculate or guess.

    History is not an exact science
    I suppose WWII didnt happen in the 1940's.. how about we rewrite it to say it happened in the 1960's, or that the Holocaust against the Jews never took place? After all history is not exact, so it is entirely open to individual interpretation.

    You make me sick YouKnow, your very presence and the ludicrous comments that spew from your mouth commit nothing short of making me nauseated.

    You just KNOW everything dont you? Judging by your endless babble on countless threads you have a response and answer for it all.

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  • Will Power
    Will Power

    Reborn good points.

    This is exactly the stance taken by people who study Mohammud and the Koran. He kept having the visions and reciting, and each would enlighten a previous. They describe "the light getting brighter" in an almost same but better way than the WT.

  • sleepy
    sleepy

    You know thanks for taking the time to consider these questions.

    How do you feel about the answers you have given?

    "d. Why are witnesses discouraged from considering criticism of societies beliefs? How can you establish the validity of a view point without hearing the other side of an argument?

    YK: Criticism is very one-sided. And the Society shouldn’t have to put itself in the position of constantly defending itself before Jehovah’s Witnesses. That’s not what the faithful slave’s assignment is."

    Why you the need to give comment on what you have read , when you feel its not necessary?
    The society claims to be Gods representative on earth,others feel differently ,also the society is critical of other religions.
    It has put it self in a place were it needs to offer proof to show its supposed superiority over other religions.

    You as a person can see the need to defend what you belive,you also talk to apostates,both these things are contrery to the witnesses rules and beliefs.
    Are you above Jehovahs organisation?

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