Nemesis

by Yadirf 18 Replies latest jw friends

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  Yadirf

  Nemesis

  In a thread over in the “Bible Research” section you said to You Know:

  Even the Watch Tower society now realises this, that’s why they changed their teaching on the ‘sheep and goats’ from pre-Armageddon, to post-Armageddon.

  First I want to say that I agree with you regarding WHEN Jesus’ parable of the ‘sheep & goats’ finds fulfillment.

  Also, I agree with you that those who died in the Flood will be resurrected as will those that die at Armageddon.

  What I want to know though, is where did you get the idea that the WTS has changed its position “from pre-Armageddon, to post-Armageddon” regarding the sheep/goat parable? Have I missed something here? The last count I had was that rather than the sheep and the goats being separated presently it had been moved forward, but still to be fulfilled this side of Armageddon. Please provide the source, and preferably a quote from that source, as to where you heard about this change that you refer to. I’m very interested in this.

  One more request: Since you have no biography in the “Who’s Who” section could you say a little bit about your history as a JW, whether or not you’ve joined a religious group since leaving the Organization, what major changes that you’ve made regarding your beliefs, and whether or not you feel that you could ever again rejoin the WTS.

  Thanks,
  Yadirf

  Daniel 11:35 ... a KEY prophecy that must be fulfilled before the "time of the end" gets underway.
• 

  dungbeetle

  I know this post wasn't addressed to me----and I don't care!!!

  WT 10/15/95

  11 Over the centuries, many such as Abraham have enjoyed a righteous standing. (James 2:21-23) Noah, Abraham, and other faithful ones count among the "other sheep" who will inherit life in Paradise under God's Kingdom. In recent times millions more have taken up true worship as other sheep and have become "one flock" with the anointed. (John 10:16; Revelation 7:9) These with earthly hopes recognize Jesus' brothers as ambassadors of the Kingdom and have therefore aided them-literally and spiritually. Jesus counts as done to him what the other sheep do for his brothers on earth. Such ones who are alive when he comes to judge the nations will be judged as sheep.

  12 If the other sheep are now preaching the good news with the anointed and aiding them, why would they ask: "Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty, and give you something to drink?" (Matthew 25:37) There could be various reasons. This is a parable. By means of it, Jesus shows his deep concern for his spiritual brothers; he feels with them, suffers with them. Jesus had earlier said: "He that receives you receives me also, and he that receives me receives him also that sent me forth." (Matthew 10:40) In this illustration, Jesus extends the principle, showing that what is done (good or bad) to his brothers reaches even into heaven; it is as if it is done to him in heaven. Also, Jesus here emphasizes Jehovah's standard for judging, making it clear that God's judgment, whether favorable or condemnatory, is valid and just. The goats cannot offer the excuse, 'Well, if only we had seen you directly.'

  13 Once we appreciate when it is that the judgment shown in this parable is rendered, we get a clearer view of who the goats are. The fulfillment is when "the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming . . . with power and great glory." (Matthew 24:29, 30) Survivors of the tribulation on Babylon the Great who have treated the King's brothers despitefully may now desperately address the Judge as "Lord," hoping to save their lives.-Matthew 7:22, 23; compare Revelation 6:15-17.

  14 However, Jesus' judgment will not be based on desperate claims from former churchgoers, atheists, or others. (2 Thessalonians 1:8) Instead, the judge will review the heart condition and past actions of people toward even "one of these least ones [of his brothers]." Admittedly, the number of anointed Christians left on earth is declining. However, as long as the anointed, making up "the faithful and discreet slave," continue to provide spiritual food and direction, prospective sheep have an opportunity to do good to the slave class, just as the 'great crowd out of all nations and tribes and peoples' have done.-Revelation 7:9, 14.

  15 How have Christ's brothers and the millions of other sheep united with them as one flock been treated? Many people may not personally have attacked Christ's representatives, but neither have they treated his people lovingly. Preferring the wicked world, goatlike ones reject the Kingdom message, whether hearing it directly or indirectly.(1 John 2:15-17) Of course, in the final analysis, Jesus is the one who is appointed to render judgment. It is not for us to determine who are sheep and who are goats.-Mark 2:8; Luke 5:22; John 2:24, 25; Romans 14:10-12; 1 Corinthians 4:5.

  21 What, though, does this fresh understanding of the parable of the sheep and the goats mean to us? Well, people are already taking sides. Some are on 'the broad road leading off into destruction,' while others try to stay on 'the cramped road leading off into life.' (Matthew 7:13, 14) But the time when Jesus will pronounce final judgment on the sheep and the goats depicted in the parable is yet ahead. When the Son of man comes in the role of Judge, he will determine that many true Christians-actually "a great crowd" of dedicated sheep-will qualify to pass through the final part of "the great tribulation" into the new world.That prospect should now be a source of joy. (Revelation 7:9, 14) On the other hand, vast numbers out of "all the nations" will have proved themselves to be like stubborn goats. They "will depart into everlasting cutting-off." What a relief for the earth!

  23 Many are exposed to our message as we preach from house to house or informally. Others may learn of Jehovah's Witnesses and what we represent in ways unknown to us. When judgment time arrives, to what extent will Jesus consider community responsibility and family merit? We cannot say, and it is pointless to speculate. (Compare 1 Corinthians 7:14.) Many now turn a deaf ear, ridicule, or share in outright persecution of God's people. Hence, this is a crucial time; such ones may be developing into those whom Jesus will judge as goats.-Matthew 10:22; John 15:20; 16:2, 3; Romans 2:5, 6.

  24 Happily, though, many respond favorably, study God's Word, and become Witnesses of Jehovah. Some who at present seem goatlike may change and become like sheep. The point is that those responding and actively supporting the remnant of Christ's brothers are thereby now giving evidence that will provide a basis for them to be placed on Jesus' right hand when, in the near future, he sits down on his throne to render judgment. These are being and will continue to be blessed. Thus, this parable should spur us on to more zealous activity in the Christian ministry. Before it is too late, we want to do all we can to proclaim the good news of the Kingdom and in that way give others the opportunity to respond. Then it is up to Jesus to render judgment, condemnatory or favorable.-Matthew 25:46.

  Come on, get with it Yardfart ole' buddy!!!!

  And for the rest o fyou, notice paragraph 24, first few lines. Here goes the Watchtower NOT SAYING ONLY JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES WILL BE SAVED....or....

  ROTFLMAO!!!!!!

  In 1975 a crack team of publishers was sentenced to death by a judicial commiteee. They promptly escaped from the cult and now live life on the run. If you have a problem ... and if you can find them ... maybe you can contact the A--postate Team"
• 

  Truth Defender

  Yadirf, is it? Continue defending Jehovah's truth even in this sea of confusion. Pray to Jehovah that he may guide you in giving a reason for the hope in you.(1 Pet.3:15)May he bless your efforts!
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  Nemesis

  Hi Yadirf,

  Dungbeetle has posted one part that they changed back in 1995, but they have taken it further in regard to those who around when Jesus takes up the throne as said here:

  “When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.”—Matthew 25: 31, 32

  I remember a longish conversation with a female witness friend who is well grounded and I can see her leaving in the near future. But anyway, she had just come back from Pioneer school, and they covered this topic there, and said they were now saying the separation was post-Armageddon during the millennial reign and resurrection, not pre-Armageddon. If you note the scripture quoted above “And all the nations will be gathered before him”, for this to happen most cannot be dead, as we are told happens prior to this time in the preceding tribulation, “for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short.” (Mathew 24: 21, 22) Later we are told Jesus takes up Kingdom throne and the separation of the sheep and goats starts, this was now [according to Watch Tower 'new light'] in regard to how the resurrected treat those here on earth and each other, and parallels with parts of Revelation: “But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds. And the sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Hades gave up those dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds. And death and Hades were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire. Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire.”—Revelation 20: 12–15

  Anyhow, that was the gist of it, I didn’t go into any more detail, and there are some obvious problems with both views. She said they had hinted [in a Watch Tower manner] in some recent mags that this is the case, but not said it as strongly as they first did back in 1995 [the article that Dungbeetle just posted]. My Watch Tower CD is only up to 2000, so I can’t check for any hints or reforms—but she was adamant that they were now speaking in regard to the resurrected and how they behaved under the millennial reign of Christ. There are some problems, like he mention of being in prison etc, but maybe that's just symbolic, who knows. That’s all I have for now, I will ask her for more detail when I next speak to her [she lives 200 miles from me] but I will try and get some more info.

  As for my profile, I haven’t put a detailed one up yet; but will give it some thought.

  PS. There is no way I would ever go back to the Watch Tower organisation.

  Nemesis.
• 

  Nemesis

  Another interesting article discussing the subject is here:
  http://www.food4jws.org/wt_beliefs/sheep_and_goats.htm
• 

  Yadirf

  Nemesis

  Thanks for explaining the basis for your having said to You Know that the WTS had "changed their teaching on the ‘sheep and goats’ from pre-Armageddon, to post-Armageddon."

  So what it really boils down to is that *you heard* another person say what *she heard* ... which was ... that the WTS "were now saying the separation was post-Armageddon during the millennial reign and resurrection, not pre-Armageddon."

  Well ... that may be true, and it may NOT be true. Personally I hope that it is true. However, there remains the possibility that, in spite of your friend being a person that "is well grounded", she might have misunderstood something said. Either that, or that some person had introduced their own independent thought about this (heresy) and she readily picked up on it. At any rate, until such 'evidence' appears officially in one of the WTS's publications it’s of course nothing more than at least hearsay, in my opinion -- which for the most part has no foundation since it can't be fully relied upon. But thanks just the same, and I will be interested to learn of any further correspondence you have with your "female witness friend" regarding this matter, particularly with regards to any *facts* that she happens across. As you can see by my signature at the bottom of this (and if you understand the gist of that scripture) I do have REASON to be interested in change.

  Also, this part of my inquiry you didn't answer. I wondered if you simply forgot to, or preferred not to:
  

  One more request: Since you have no biography in the “Who’s Who” section could you say a little bit about...whether or not you’ve joined a religious group since leaving the Organization, what major changes that you’ve made regarding your beliefs....

  Of course I can only speculate that, because in your reply you referred me to an article found at the Bible Students Association website, you might possibly, but not necessarily, be affiliated with them.

  Thanks again,
  Yadirf

  Daniel 11:35 ... a KEY prophecy that must be fulfilled before the "time of the end" gets underway.
• 

  Yadirf

  dungbeetle

  Come on, get with it Yardfart ole' buddy!!!!

  Are you suggesting that I haven't kept abreast of the WTS's teaching on the subject of the "sheep and goats" illustration? Apparently so! But really, in all that you've quoted out of the Society's literature, have you demonstrated that I was in fact behind? No, you haven't. How so? Because the material you posted only confirmed what I had already said in my post to Nemesis, above. Note what I had said above:
  

  The last count I had was that rather than the sheep and the goats being separated presently it had been moved forward, but still to be fulfilled this side of Armageddon.

  And is that not simply ALL that you've shown by your extensive post?

  Is it not evident that you just like to rattle on, having nothing of substance to say actually? Surely so!

  Yadirf

  Daniel 11:35 ... a KEY prophecy that must be fulfilled before the "time of the end" gets underway.
• 

  Yadirf

  Truth Defender

  Thank you for your positive words, and attitude.

  Yadirf
• 

  Nemesis

  Yardirf:
  
  Why don’t you just write to your religious leaders at the Watch Tower, and see what they have to say? Would that not be easier? If they are to change their teachings, and decided to bring this up at a pioneer school, that is neither here nor there to me, as I have no faith in such a fallible, hypocritical, man made, and man driven blood guilty organisation.

  Also, this part of my inquiry you didn't answer. I wondered if you simply forgot to, or preferred not to…. Of course I can only speculate that, because in your reply you referred me to an article found at the Bible Students Association website, you might possibly, but not necessarily, be affiliated with them.

  Actually I did answer it, and said: “As for my profile, I haven’t put a detailed one up yet; but will give it some thought.” Your last comment makes me feel like I’m in a judicial hearing! I will decide in my own time if I wish to give out any more info on myself. Your comments leave me with the feeling that you only wish to know so as to somehow judge me, or categorize me, which I refuse to do. I am under nobody’s authority here or at the Watch Tower, and I leave that organisations snooping and meddling far behind in my life—I have no desire to play to others to be judged here either.
• 

  Yadirf

  Nemesis

  Why don’t you just write to your religious leaders at the Watch Tower, and see what they have to say?

  I can very well do just that, even as I have done in the past. But that's not what this is about. What's at stake here on this forum is YOUR credibility. YOU specifically accused You Know of not knowing what his own religion taught of late, that you even had advance knowledge of something that he was in the dark about. But as it turns out YOU haven't any proof to back up your claim, other than the word of another person ... which CAN BE simply nothing more than hearsay, or even heresy.

  I simply asked you for evidence to support your statement that YOU made to You Know, while being in hopes that you had something substantial to back up what you said to him. I don't see that evidence, and so therefore you weren't justified in being so condemnatory in accusing him of not being up to date on what the Organization teaches regarding the illustration as found at Matthew 25.

  Actually I did answer it, and said: “As for my profile, I haven’t put a detailed one up yet; but will give it some thought.”

  No, that's not an answer at all. That's a slick evasion tactic you're using, in order to keep FROM answering the question. An answer would be something like: "For right now I prefer not to disclose such information about my personal beliefs and whether or not I'm affiliated with some religious group." Simply speak the truth, why do you find that so hard?

  Your last comment makes me feel like I’m in a judicial hearing!

  That's laughable! You mean to say that my asking you such a simple question as I did that you feel like you're in the hot seat? There must be something eating at you conscience, it would appear to me.

  I will decide in my own time if I wish to give out any more info on myself.

  As I've already suggested, that's something that you might of said to begin with, but didn't. But even then, if you have reason to be proud of your choice of denomination or whatever then what have you to hide?

  Your comments leave me with the feeling that you only wish to know so as to somehow judge me, or categorize me, which I refuse to do.

  Of course knowing for a certainty that you are part of the Bible Students Association would disclose much to me about YOU, even as your knowing that my preference being the WTS tells you a lot about ME. Don't you think it to be a little unfair for you to know such a thing about me while at the same time insisting that I remain in the dark about your affiliations?

  I am under nobody’s authority here or at the Watch Tower, and I leave that organisations snooping and meddling far behind in my life—I have no desire to play to others to be judged here either.

  In other words you're telling me to kiss your behind? Well let me tell you: You don't stand tall enough in order to make it possible for me to get down low enough to do that. Spiritual midgets need ladders, haven’t you heard?
  
  Personally, I believe that YOU definitely owe You Know an apology for saying what you did to him. Are you man enough to do that?

  I'm sorry that this has turned out the way that it has, as I really didn’t intend for it to. I approached you in a civil manner, only to have you take advantage of it and retaliate with the use of unkind remarks regarding MY religious preference, the WTS. While at the same time you wish to keep it a secret whether or not you're an affiliate of the BSA. You simply want to play hit and run, keeping yourself concealed from the danger of exposure. Okay, well I see the way it's going/got to be.

  Last word: In that thread (over in the Bible Research section) which you addressed to You Know, you DEMANDED that he answer certain questions posed by you. You accused him of sidestepping those questions. Now here you do the same thing that you condemned him of doing, using the excuse that you don’t want to open yourself up to be judged etc. Like I've often heard said here on this forum, "Do you know how to spell hypocrite?"

  Forget that I ever contacted you, please!

  Daniel 11:35 ... a KEY prophecy that must be fulfilled before the "time of the end" gets underway.