Michelle, perhaps you could take a moment to answer a couple of questions that you missed:
what universal church are you speaking of?
However, is this what your argument with me is about? That I do not accept the nicene creed, and do not accept the teachings of 'mainstream christianity'? (If those teachings are in union with what Christ taught and teaches, then sure, I accept them... but not
otherwise)
Because I thought that your argument with me was something else. Perhaps you could define it in a plain, straightforward way?
Thank you.
where do you get your information that the "great" apostasy had happened...and what time are you refering to exactly?...by AD325 all the bishops of the church were called to settle the matter of who Jesus Christ was according to the teaching of the apostles, written documents and theological arguements...are you saying that the apostates won the day?...that God Almighty was so easily thwarted by man?...or is it more likely that God holds the destiny of the church in His hand and the Holy Spirit was present at that council and the intentions of God were carried out...that the one foundational DOGMA of the early church...who Jesus Christ IS was proclaimed by official creed...He is the FOUNDATION of THE faith.
Just out of curiosity, why was there a matter to settle if there was no apostasy to begin with?
having said that, it is apparent who the universal church is by looking at the witness of history, Tammy. With all its human problems it still has the seal of the Living God.
Well it is not apparent to me. Perhaps someone else can answer? Or perhaps you could answer my question plainly?
I mean, anyone can claim to have the seal of the living God. I am curious how you know this 'church' has this seal?
and you, no doubt, suspect that it was added to to deceive the masses...
You should probably not add 'no doubt' to what you think I suspect. I suspect nothing of the sort above, and stated nothing more than what can be seen in black and white. The apostles creed was changed and added TO... when it became the nicene creed.
no thought of articulating the teaching and witness of Jesus Christ or how the ONE God of creation could be extrapolated from OT books and the written accounts of the early church to a cohesive unity in order to help clarify for followers who God is? These men were servants to the most High God it was their task to serve the needs of the growing church...why the objection to "voting"?...isn't it true that reaching a concensus is a mark of unity?
A consensus might be the mark of unity, but that does not make it the mark of truth.
(and the need for a vote to begin with shows the lack of unity that was present at that time)
...as a matter of fact there are "groups" that live by this ideology who are not and will not call themselves christian, is it your stance that they are for Jesus Christ then?...against their stated beliefs you call the shots and they are indeed His?...interesting...please elaborate on that scripture. do you try at all to cast out demons, or even doctrines of demons, Tammy?...or do you welcome them, in all their guises, into fellowship with you? if you are following Jesus...WWJD?
But we were not speaking of these groups, were we? While interesting for another discussion, we are speaking of those who are for Christ and God, but who might differ on a doctrinal matter.
His sheep heard His voice in the teaching of the apostles did they not?
By extension, they might have. But that does not mean that they are limited to this, does it? They CAN hear HIS voice, themselves. Is there some reason to believe otherwise?
Jesus founded His church by the teaching of the Holy Spirit through peter and the apostles did He not?...the boreans checked the hebrew scriptures to see that what the apostles taught was true did they not?...are all these not His sheep because they didn't audibly hear His voice?...or maybe they just didn't have YOUR faith to hear His voice?
I did not say they were not his sheep... I would not make that judgment. YOU say that I cannot be his sheep. YOU say that I cannot hear His voice.
Jesus called some people sons of their father, satan...and said that they wouldn't enter the kingdom...they would therefore be cast out to be with satan. On the cross Jesus asked the Father to forgive the people there because they knew not what they did, earlier He wasn't so forgiving to those people who He called sons of their father, satan. do you think that we should draw a line of distinction between forgiving those who know not what they do and those who know they are enemies of Christ?
A) How do you know who is who, that you can draw a line of distinction to begin with?
B) Anyone can turn and come to Him for life. What makes you think that in his calling them children of the devil, that he was not trying to warn them of who it was they were following, rather than handing them over to Satan?
paul was saying that the church "bishops"were in agreement on important matters of the faith and therefore there was no call for picking one preacher over another.
And certainly not over Christ. So if someone taught something that was in conflict with Christ... then one should follow Christ.
and because he did remove them from the congregation and deliver them to satan it would have been for something important like an anti-christ teaching...a dogma... not a doctrine, or a mere opinion they held contrary to the teachings of the church
From this you mean, from Paul in Galations?
"If anyone is teaching you a different gospel, let them be eternally condemned?"
Similar words are repeated at the end of Revelation as well.
But I think I asked if Christ had done this... handed people over to Satan, or called a curse down upon anyone. Not if Paul or anyone else had done so. They may have done so. That is between them and Christ. What I do, is between me and Christ.
Jesus is the Christ; they deny the essential unity of the Father and Son "relationship" in the Godhead...see my response above...if the teaching of the Father and Son that was taught by the apostles abides in you the Holy Spirit abides in you as well...you are anointed from the Holy ONE.
Again, denying that He is the Christ... is not the same as denying the teaching that came with the nicene creed.
Denying that He is the Christ... is just that. Denying that He is the Messiah. Simple. Not complicated.
Peace to you,
tammy