Post 666: Revelation--Its Grand Climax in 70 AD

by Londo111 85 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  EntirelyPossible

  My point is that I could say all that without giving any specific examples.

  So rather than ask for examples, you accuse.

  I didn't set up a strawman (you might want to look up the definition of that btw). I merely asked for examples of what you were saying

  No, you merely said that because it seemed like I was trying to write him off without providing any, THEN asked for some, then invoked Cofty's Law by trying to say I was being like the watchtower. You setup a strawman of "EP didn't provide examples, he's like the watchtower". All you had to do was ask before you went off on senseless and baseless attack. Another part of your strawman was to attempt to make it seem as if I was writing something off without reading it, when my opening post was that I had recently read it.

  If you had MERELY asked for examples, your reply would have been "EP, can you provide some examples of what you are claiming?".

  I wasn't trying to be a jerk. Just asking how they were asking for donations, how they used failed predictions as evidence of true future prophecy, and generated a narrative designed to get people to believe them.

  Weird that, for someone NOT trying to be a jerk, you would claim that I am being like the Watchtower.

  In any event, now you have your examples. Go in peace and learn to think before you speak.
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  jgnat

  All those colours hurt my brain.

  Here's a thought. If the preterists are right, then it is possible that humankind has been working towards paradise on earth ever since. The thousand year reign and final judgement would come out just about time for the Black Plague. That is the closest we've come to extinction.
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  Londo111

  Quendi: I've sent you a PM...and an email.
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  Christ Alone

  then invoked Cofty's Law by trying to say I was being like the watchtower.

  Funny! Look at your post. You accused the writers of that book of being like the Watchtower. You said:

  What struck me is that, how apart from some doctrinal issues like the Trinity or blood, they use very similiar reasoning as the JW's

  I guess (in your definition) that was a strawman too. :-)

  And that wasn't nice to Cofty... poor poor Cofty

  Also you said:

  you can take how they define King of the North and the facts they use to support that, their alternate switching between "this sentence is symbolic and this is literal" in the same prophecy (which they use to build their chart of a timeline of events of the triblulation, armageddon, etc.), their use of "no one can know when the end will come" and then saying "but we have a REALLY good case for thinking it's gonna happen any second now" and then making sure that, if you beleive them, well, hey, Jesus said no one would know (while conventiently forgetting to mention that he said "when you are expecting it, it won't happen").

  I still didn't read any facts in there. It was all vague generalizations. "This sentence is symbolic and this is literal". That's not a specific example. But I guess you don't have one. I AM thinking before I speak, which I guess is the problem when speaking to you. By asking for specific examples, that you can't give, I guess that was asking too much.

  The funny thing is that I wasn't defending the book. I don't even know what the book is. I was asking for examples instead of vagueness.
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  Londo111

  jgnat,

  The Preterist view is amillennial and holds that the 1000 years are a symbolic number.

  Full Preterism is also postmillennial and holds that the "1000 years" ended in 70 and essentially the 40 year period from 30 to 70 AD.

  Some Partial Preterists believe that the the "1000" years started in 70 AD and are ongoing.

  BTW--this is an interesting Youtube channel dedicated to Preterism:

  http://www.youtube.com/user/MrDonPreston?feature=watch
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  EntirelyPossible

  you got examples. it's not my problem you don't like them or that you got called out for your strawm, empty arguments, accusations and lack of reading comprehension.
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  Vanderhoven7

  MATTHEW 24 STUDY

  Summarizing Matthew 24:1-44 as I understand it:

  Jesus has just left the temple for the last time after pronouncing it desolate. He moves to the mount of olives with His disciples and tells them that the temple would be utterly destroyed.

  His disciples are shocked and ask 1. when this would happen and 2. what would signal his visitation and the end of the age.

  As I see it, Jesus answers the first question in verses 1 -35

  In verses. 5-14 he tells them that difficult times were ahead for them.

  1. False “messiahs” would arise before Jerusalem's destruction

  2. There would be numerous military encounters.

  3. Famines and earthquakes would occur.

  4. There would be intense persecution of believers.

  5. Some would “stumble,” and depart from the faith.

  6. False prophets would be prevalent.

  7. There would be decreasing spirituality on the part of some saints.

  8. Those who endured and remained alive would be physically delivered.

  9. The gospel would be published far and wide before Jerusalem's fall.

  Then in verses 15 - 35 He identifies the sign that would alert them to Jerusalem's impending desolation and provides the course of action they should take:

  He tells them: As soon as you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies know its desolation is near. There will be no time to waste, even to get extra clothing; It will be unfortunate for pregnant and nursing mothers; pray that your flight from the city or Judean villages will not be impeded by winter conditions or on a Sabbath day when the city gates are locked and traveling distance limited. Escape quickly because unparallelled tribulation for Jerusalem and its inhabitants is about to occur. Don't believe the false prophets who tell you that the messiah is secretly present somewhere, to deliver you; no because my second coming will be evident worldwide.

  Immediately, swiftly after the siege and suffering brought about by it; the onslaught and the destruction of the temple and city will occur orchestrated by the Son of man, from heaven. Many shall fall by the sword and those that survive will be shipped off as slaves to gentile lands. Be happy that as a result, because you will be spared destruction and Jewish restraints and persecution will be shattered and the gospel will have free course throughout the world. You are to know the exact timing and when all this is about to take place. All these things will happen within this (his own) generation.

  Then, as I see it, Jesus answers the second question from verse 36-44

  But of that day, the day of my parousia, my personal, highly visible coming, knows no man. There will be no signs to warn people; it will come as a total surprise as did the flood in Noah's day. People will be going about there business as usual, it will be normal times; people will be marrying and giving in marriage, working at their jobs There will be no need to flee this event. Two men will be working in the field; one taken, one left behind; two women working at the mill, one taken, one left behind. Be ready at all times since the son of man will come when you least expect it. And it will come as a snare upon the whole earth, not just Jerusalem and Judea.
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  NoStonecutters

  Londo111, do you know about Roman Emperor Julian the Apostate and the failed rebuilding of the temple in the fourth century Anno Domini?

  Flavius Claudius Julianus Augustus hated Christians and created an alliance with the Jews. The alliance involved the Jews being allowed to rebuild their temple. To make a long story short, when the Jews attempted to build just the foundation, large fireballs started shooting up from the earth and devoured many of the Jews, and the ground literally shook, not unlike when the Temple was rent in two at Christ's death. Glowing crosses also appeared on them. This is reported by the Church Fathers as well as secular sources. The Jews tried to blame the phenomenon on natural causes (trapped gas in the Earth) and later returned to construct the foundation. Again, the same thing happened. Needless to say, the Jews ceased with their plan to rebuild and they didn't dare attempt it again.

  How do millenalists (dispensationalists), or even non-believers, explain this away? If Jesus is not the Messiah or didn't exist, why is He at the centre of history?

  Stanley Jaki says:

  Anyone who was there found either on his vestments or on his body a luminous sign in the form of a cross, which exceeded the beauty of anything produced by a weaver or by a painter. On seeing this, they [the Jews] were so terrified as to invoke in one voice the God of the Christians and tried to expiate Him with many praises and supplications. Some even went so far as to seek out our priests and were after many prayers admitted into the Church, and introduced into the greater mysteries. The had their souls purified in baptism and so profied from their terror."

  "...when God caused the earthquake to cease, the workmen who survived again returned to their task, partly because such was the edict of the Emperor and partly because they were themselves interested in the undertaking. Men often, in endeavouring to gratify their own passions, seek what is injurious to them, reject what would be truly advantageous, and are deluded by their ideas that nothign is really useful except what is agreeable to them. When once led astray by this error, they are no longer able to act in a manner conductive to their own interest, or to take warning by the calamities which are visited upon them.

  The Jews, I believe, were just in this state; for, instead of regarding this unexpected earthquake as a manifest indication that God was opposed to the re-erection of their temple, they proceeded to recommence the work. But all parties related, that they had scarcely returned to their undertaking., when fire burst suddenly from the foundations of the temple, and consumed several of the workmen."

  I agree with many early twentieth century critics of the WTBTS that it is nothing more than a Judaizing sect. It's staunch millenialism and Jewish roots are proof positive. Futurism, specifically dispensationalism, has one goal: to take the focus off of history, which is Christ, and put it on Israel and the so-called chosen people (idolatry). Therefore, futurism is a Judaizing sect, stretching as far back as the Hussite Revolution, perhaps beyond. The Hussite revolution, being Christian in appearance, was co-opted by revolutionary Jews seeking revenge against the Catholic Church. The Hussite heresy would later be reborn under Cyrus Scofield, whose heresies are the eschatological force driving the Evangelical movement in America today. There is nothing new under the sun.
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  mP

  go read the wiki article on the number of the beast. It doesnt take a much to realise that Johns rantings in Relevation are not prophecy but simply rants. 666 = Nero. The dragons crowns etc are all symbolism that fits with Nero and the history of Rome shortly after that.
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  mP

  Christ:

  Yet, Paul's epistles fit in with the gospels perfectly (IMO), and this is further proof that what Paul was teaching was inspired

  mP:

  And thats why Paul a nobody overrides the apostles who spent years with Jesus. If Paul can change Gods views why not also believe David Koresh. Its pretty apparent that the either the apostles were bad listeners or Jesus was a bad teacher.

  Paul never states anything about jesus, no bethlehem, virgin mary, joseph, 12 apostles, miracles, nazareth, galilee nothing. If im wrong show me the scriptures.