The grandmother should not undermine her daughter with regard to her grandson. She needs to work with her daughter to cultivate critical thinking skills. Untill it becomes illegal for a parent to raise their children in cults, the only ethical way to address the problem is through the parent.
A poignant comment on JWsurvey.org from a nonJW regarding Sparlock
by cedars 46 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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King Solomon
NC said:
I know there is at least one book (sorry--I didn't google yet) that teaches you how to teach a child critical thinking. So focus on that----not the particulars of the religion. Give him the skills to HONESTLY come to his own conclusions through his own abilities.
Chappy, the oft-mentioned book is Hans Christian Andersen's Fairy Tales for Children, containing "the Emperor's New Clothes" (a story about dangers of group-think). Aesop's Fables are always good, too, as an alternative source of morality.
HOWEVER, we ARE talking about a 3 y.o. here, who's still learning to read: he's quite a few years out from such high-minded concerns, and even watching Loonie Tunes cartoons or Sesame Street or Sparlock DVD is a learning experience for him....
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cedars
Update on the lady who emailed...
We've exchanged emails a couple of times today, and hopefully I've given her information that can help her to understand the situation moving forward. She seemed particularly concerned about the issue of shunning, i.e. when her grandson gets older if he's ever disfellowshipped. She has some religious background having grown up in the Catholic Church but I get the impression she is surprised by some of the extremes that JWs go to (as you might expect). She hasn't indicated how she wants to proceed further, but I think we must give her the benefit of the doubt in assuming she will handle the situation responsibly and with sensitivity.
Cedars
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steve2
Yes, we will tell 'granny' to save the 'smelling salts' for when she learns her grandchild was molested by the local 'Brother Cover-Up'.
Here we have a classic case of bait-and-switch. You can almost justify any kind of response based on this reasoning. It's called a "moral panic". Shall we stick to the topic at hand and not bring up child molestation when the grandmother was not even talking about that and something more mundane (a vocal 3 year-old spouting about magic being bad)?
On the latter, yes, it can be problematic when a child is so vocal as they can be on many issues. The issue is not parental views on a particular topic but directing the child to be more considerate of others.
Here's the double-standard as I see it: If a non-JW mother left her 3 year-old in the care of her JW mother-in-law and later heard the 3 year-old spout a JW belief, everyone here would strongly empathize with the poor non-JW mother. E.g., "How dare the JW grandmother violate a religious boundary, etc., etc." And rightly so!
But because the scenario is the exact opposite, people use any justification (even child molestation) to assert the need for breaching a boundary.
Excuse me if I assert in return that no grandparent has a right to interfere in the religious instruction their grandchild is receiving. And, if you must resort to hyperbole to make your point by using the child molestation issue to justify a more aggressive approach, 2 points: First, as stated on that reasoning you can justify anything and 2) the grandmother is self-described as a non-practising Catholic - if you want to play the child molestation card, that church is not exactly guilt-free when it comes to its abysmal record of child abuse.
Stick to the issue and reign in the moral panics, please.
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3dogs1husband
Steven Hassans latest book...she should read it :) seriously
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cofty
She could do no better than to try to convey the same ideas to her grandson than those that Richard Dawkins wrote to his 10 year old daughter..
It is well worth a read but here is the last paragraph,
Next time somebody tells you something that sounds
important, think to yourself: 'Is this the kind of thing that people probably know
because of evidence? Or is it the kind of thing that people only believe because of
tradition, authority or revelation?' And, next time somebody tells you that something
is true, why not say to them: 'What kind of evidence is there for that?' And if they
can't give you a good answer, I hope you'll think very carefully before you believe a
word they say.
Your loving
Daddy
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steve2
Next time somebody tells you something that sounds
important, think to yourself: 'Is this the kind of thing that people probably know
because of evidence? Or is it the kind of thing that people only believe because of
tradition, authority or revelation?' And, next time somebody tells you that something
is true, why not say to them: 'What kind of evidence is there for that?' And if they
can't give you a good answer, I hope you'll think very carefully before you believe a
word they say.
Your loving
Daddy
Yes, good words, cofty. I like Dawkins' approach. I also notice that he's addressing these words to his own child (i.e., not his grandchild) - which makes them all the more powerful.
In the present case, there is a stronger need for the grandmother to observe appropriate boundaries. Sure, there's no reason why she should tolerate the 3 year-old's loud vocalized statements about magic when she is looking after him or when he is visiting with his JW mom. Even those who are pro-JW - and JWs themselves - should see the need to ensure even 3 year-olds observe social conventions (i.e., because the child's 3, doesn't mean no one can ask the child or the parents to keep the child under control).
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exwhyzee
Which begs the question: what DID you tell her about that, Cedars? Did you make a case for telling the child "magic is good?"
Good or Bad ??? What proof is there that "magic"even exists other than the slight of hand tricks we see performed on a stage ? Telling a child that a toy is bad and could connect him with Satan when there is no proof of such a thing or that there is a "devil" is primative and superstitious. The danger lies in ones beleiving that magic is real or from a powerful source.
It's a sad day when a mother can't speak up when she sees her daughter and grandchild about to enter into association with a group that is considered by many to be a borderline cult, without being viewed as meddeling and interfering. One day that grandchild or daughter may be lost to her forever for want of a blood transfusion, another harmless little notion they hold as truth. It seems like everyone is assuming that the woman has been meddeling in other areas yet nothing but her concerns for her grandchild, in this one particular area were mentioned. It seems to me, if she were a meddeler, she'd have spoken up by now rather than have asked advice from someone who may have indepth experience on the matter. I'd say she's weighing her options carefully before jumping in. I'd do the same thing if one of my Son's were about to embark on something that seemed a little "out there".
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Hortensia
maybe granny should tell the kid magic isn't real, it's just a story and sometimes the stories are fun. It's also OK in my book if the granny gently disagrees with what mom says, and tells the kid one day he will be able to make his own choices. Of course at 3, the simpler the better, but as time goes on she can share more complex thoughts with the kid without starting a war with the mother.
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GLTirebiter
Before discussing the Watchtower with her daughter, she should read A Catholic Critique of Jehovah's Witnesses. It was written about half a century ago, but still offers an good (unflattering) survey of WT history and doctrines. It is particularly appropriate for those with a Catholic background (practicing or not).
"In what follows we shall attempt to investigate the more outstanding pecularities of the Witnesses’ creed….We would emphasize our purpose in doing this, which is not to ridicule or make light of anyone’s beliefs simply because they are not our beliefs. What has prompted this analysis is the Witnesses’ own insistence on their beliefs as truths which contradict our beliefs and are incompatible with them. We shall approach the Witnesses’ creed from the standpoint of those elements in it which are avowedly destructive of the Judeo-Christian tradition in which we stand. In doing so, we hope to do a service not merely for those of the Catholic religion but also for all who share the concern of the Catholic Church for the fundamental doctrines and values of the Christianity which has molded our society…"