For Recovery: A discussion about the Great Crowd and the Other Sheep

by Londo111 39 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Londo111

  Recovery,

  As requested, a discussion on the Great Crowd and the identity of the Other Sheep.

  First question: Where are the Great Crowd rendering sacred service day and night?

  The proper exegesis of this question within the symbolic language of this passage makes or breaks any hermeneutical interpretation built on top of that foundation. So, first, we must get the foundation right.

  A very good tool for this is Blue Letter Bible. For instance, please look at Revelation 7:15, broken down to the Koine.

  http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rev&c=7&v=15&t=YLT#conc/15

  For		g 1223	δι? dia
  thisreason,		g 3778	ο?τος houtos
  theyare		g 1510	ε?μ? eimi
  before		g 1799	?ν?πιον enopion
  thethrone		g 2362	θρ?νος thronos
  ofGod;		g 2316	θε?ς theos
  and		g 2532	κα? kai
  theyserve		g 3000	λατρε?ω latreuo
  Him		g 846	α?τ?ς autos
  day		g 2250	?μ?ρα hemera
  and		g 2532	κα? kai
  night		g 3571	ν?ξ nyx
  in		g 1722	?ν en
  His		g 846	α?τ?ς autos
  temple;		g 3485	να?ς naos
  and		g 2532	κα? kai
  Hewhosits		g 2521	κ?θημαι kathemai
  on		g 1909	?π? epi
  thethrone		g 2362	θρ?νος thronos
  willspreadHistabernacle		g 4637	σκην?ω skenoo
  over		g 1909	?π? epi
  them.		g 846	α?τ?ς autos

  First, we noticed the Great Crowd renders service. The word is latreuo , which means:

  1) to serve for hire

  2) to serve, minister to, either to the gods or men and used alike of slaves and freemen

  a) in the NT, to render religious service or homage, to worship

  b)to perform sacred services, to offer gifts, to worship God in the observance of the rites instituted for his worship

  1) of priests, to officiate, to discharge the sacred office

  WHERE does the Great Crowd render sacred service? In the naos, which was "used of the temple at Jerusalem, but only of the sacred edifice (or sanctuary) itself, consisting of the Holy place and the Holy of Holies (in classical Greek it is used of the sanctuary or cell of the temple, where the image of the god was placed which is distinguished from the whole enclosure)"

  The word naos which consisted of the Holy and Most Holy, is distinguished from word hieron. For instance, at Matthew 21:12, Jesus throws the moneychangers from the hieron (temple grounds), not the naos (the sanctuary).

  About the word hieron we read:

  The word "temple" in the NT, with respect to the temple at Jerusalem, often referred to the entire precinct which included the sanctuary, courts, and other buildings. The temple of Jerusalem consisted of the whole of the sacred enclosure, embracing the entire aggregate of buildings, balconies, porticos, courts (that is that of the men of Israel, that of the women, and that of the priests), belonging to the temple; the latter designates the sacred edifice properly so called, consisting of two parts, the "sanctuary" or "Holy Place" (which no one except the priests was allowed to enter), and the "Holy of Holies" or "the most holy place" (which was entered only on the great day of atonement by the high priest alone). Also there were the courts where Jesus or the apostles taught or encountered adversaries, and the like, "in the temple"; also the courts of the temple, of the Gentiles, out of which Jesus drove the buyers and sellers and the money changers, court of the women.

  The word hieron is not found in the book of Revelation. But is it possible that the great crowd are in the courtyards? To clarify the word naos in Revelation, we need to turn to Revelation 11:2 and look at the Koine Greek.

  http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rev&c=11&v=2&t=YLT#conc/2

  "Leaveout		g 1544	?κβ?λλω ekballo
  thecourt		g 833	α?λ? aule
  whichisoutside		g 1855	?ξωθεν exothen
  thetemple		g 3485	να?ς naos
  and		g 2532	κα? kai
  donot		g 3361	μ? me
  measure		g 3354	μετρ?ω metreo
  it,		g 846	α?τ?ς autos
  for		g 3754	?τι hoti
  ithasbeengiven		g 1325	δ?δωμι didomi
  tothenations;		g 1484	?θνος ethnos
  and		g 2532	κα? kai
  theywilltreadunderfoot		g 3961	πατ?ω pateo
  theholy		g 40	?γιος hagios
  city		g 4172	π?λις polis
  forforty-		g 5062	τεσσαρ?κοντα tessarakonta
  two		g 1417	δ?ο dyo
  months.		g 3376	μ?ν men

  Notice in this vision, the aule(court or courtyard) is distinguished from the naos, in fact, the courtyard is outside the Temple Sanctuary.

  Conclusion: The Great Crowd cannot be in the courtyard, since they are in the the Temple Sanctuary, the Holy Place. If they rendering sacred service in the Holy Place, they carry out a priestly duty. If they are carrying out a priestly duty, they cannot be a secondary class of Christians with a lesser hope. This is in harmony with 1 Peter 2:5, which says, "And you yourselves, as living stones, are built up, a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ."
• 

  Londo111

  Question 2: Who are the other sheep?

  At John 10:16, Jesus says, "And I have other sheep that are not of this fold, these also it is necessary for me to bring, and my voice they will hear, and there shall become one flock--one shepherd."

  First of all, to determine who the other sheep, we must determine who the 'this fold' is.

  Another useful exercise of exegesis is to ask: who was Christ's audience?

  Answer: they were Jews, Israelites.

  Another useful exercise in this is reading many of the occurrences of Jesus using the word sheep in the Gospels.

  Matthew 10:6, "and be going rather unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

  Mathew 9:36, "And having seen the multitudes, He was moved with compassion for them, that they were faint and cast aside, as sheep not having a shepherd."

  Matthew 15:24, "and He answering said, `I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.'"

  Matthew 26:31, "then said Jesus to them, `All you shall be stumbled at Me this night; for it has been written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad"

  Therefore, it seems logical that Jesus was talking about Israelite sheep that followed him. They were the first fold that Jesus talked about at John 10:16. Therefore, the Other Sheep, would be non-Israelite sheep, Gentiles, those not of the Jewish fold. These Jesus would bring in and become one flock with Jewish Christians. If they are one flock, they would have one Hope and one eternal Destination. A single flock of sheep would not have two homes thousands of miles apart.

  To confirm these, let us look at the Ephesians 2:

  11 For what reason, remember, that you [were] once the nations in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that called Circumcision in the flesh made by hands,
  12 that you were at that time apart from Christ, having been alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, having no hope, and without God, in the world;
  13 and now, in Christ Jesus, you being once afar off became near in the blood of the Christ,
  14 for he is our peace, who did make both one, and did break down the middle wall of the enclosure,
  15 the enmity in his flesh, having done away the law of the commands in ordinances, that the two he might create into one new man in himself, making peace.

  In the first century, when Christians read the Gospel of John, whom do you believe they thought the Other Sheep to be? Gentile Christians . . . or a secondarily class of Christians some 1900 years in the future with an earthly hope? How can sheep be of one flock, if some of them are in Heaven, and others live on the earth?

  My conclusion: The Other Sheep are Gentile Christians.
• 

  bennyk

  First question: Where are the Great Crowd rendering sacred service day and night? The "Great Crowd" is in the naos ( en tw naw ) according to Rev. 7:15.

  The naos itself is specifically stated to be in Heaven in Rev. 11:19; 14:17; and 15:5. Ergo, the "Great Crowd" serves in Heaven.
• 

  Londo111

  In regard the Great Crowd, that moves from exegesis and into hermeneutics.

  But I do agree, as Ephesians 4:4 says, "...according as also you were called in one hope of your calling".

  This would not lend itself to their being a Heavenly hope for a few Christians, and an Earthly hope for all others. Of course, the Society's counterargument becomes, "One Hope: Two Destinies". But to me that seems a matter of shifty semantics.

  At Luke 12:32, Jesus says, " Fear not, little flock, for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the Kingdom. "

  But if we do proper exegesis, we ask, 'Who was Jesus speaking to? Who was his immediate audience?'

  Verse 1 highlights there are two groups present on this occasion: " In the meantime, when so many thousands of the people had gathered together that they were trampling one another, he began to say to his disciples first…"

  In verse 22, it shows shows who verse 32 was directed toward: " And he said to his disciples…"

  At that time, in contrast to thousands assembled, his disciples were indeed a little flock. At Pentecost, we note that really there were 120 to begin with, but in one day, that number jumps to 3000. The little flock did not remain little…nor is there a hint in Scripture that there is a cap on the number of those with the Heavenly hope.
• 

  Bobcat

  Londo111:

  (John 10:16 NWT) . . .And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold. . .

  Another point in favor of your conclusion involves a subtle mistranslation of John 10:16 in the NWT.

  "Of" in 10:16 is the Greek preposition ek. The NWT regularly translates this as "out of." (There is a diagram inside the front cover of the KIT that also shows this. An example of the NWT practice of translating it as "out of" is Rev 7:4-8.)

  Jesus is saying that the "other sheep" are not "out of" the sheepfold (or courtyard) that his earlier sheep came "out of." By changing "out of" to "of," the NWT wants you to think that the "other sheep" are not "of" (i.e. 'part of' or 'members of') the earlier sheep that the good shepherd "leads ... out." (Jn 10:3, 4)

  The reasoning you used works fine. But it would be alot easier to see this point if the NWT didn't try to deceive.

  (Concerning the NWT on this point: Other Bibles also translate "of" on this point. But the NWT is very consistant about ek otherwise. I can't help but think this was intentional. It is also pared with "fold" in verse 16, which is translated "sheepfold in verse 1. The word refers to an in-town courtyard where sheep are housed (when used in connection with sheep), as opposed to a wilderness pen. But the Society wants you to think that "fold" in verse 10 is equivelant with "flock," that is, the flock that was brought out in verse 3.)

  And in connection with naos, Rev 11:2 is a good point because it clearly differentiates naos from the courtyards. And it is contextually close to Rev 7.

  And I think you just gave me something to think about in connection with "anointed" from this thread.

  Take Care
• 

  Londo111

  Thank you, Bobcat! I didn't know that.

  Earlier this year, I had started to go through the Interlinear and comparing the transliteration to the NWT, noting what valid differences I could find. I got up to the book of John 5 before my energy gave out on that project. One day, I hope to continue that project. However, I suspect I would have missed the subtlety you pointed out entirely.

  There are many instances where the NWT is extremely literal and that makes the inconsistencies in certain verses stand out all the more. For instance, in the Beatitudes, much is very literally rendered, but Matthew 5:3 is not rendered literally.

  ###

  A quick addendum:

  As this is directed toward mainly toward a JW apologist, I didn't want to bring up the Society directly, but now that subject is broached, I will say that I believe their teaching derives from eisegesis. Verses are quote mined to support a view, but rarely are the verses considered in context. Specific phrases from one Bible book are keyed in on--then tied to that of another Bible book--but sometimes a phrase in a verse takes on a whole new meaning when considering the whole passage.

  This year at the Memorial, I listened to the talk with fresh ears. Different prooftexts were read that contained key phrases to fit the theology and they no longer fit together as they had all my life.
• 

  WinstonSmith

  Bumpity bump bump....
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  Recovery

  So basically Londo's argument comes to down to three points:

  1. The Great Crowd are in the temple sanctuary

  2. They cannot be in the courtyard, which is outside the sanctuary, since they are in the sanctuary

  3. Those in the sanctuary perform priestly duties/services, and thus those who perform priestly duties must have a heavenly hope as 1 Peter 2:5 indicates.

  This line of reasoning would be definitive and conclusive, except the word "naos" is not used exclusively for the sanctuary itself. It is a logical fallacy to assert that the use of "naos" in Revelation 7 conclusively signifies that this must be the temple sanctuary. As this shows (http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3485&t=NIV) naos is used over 40 times in the NT and it does not always exclusively signify the temple sanctuary.

  An example of this is: 1 Corinthians 3:16 "Do YOU not know that YOU people are God’s temple (naos), and that the spirit of God dwells in YOU?"

  Also we have Ephesians 2:20, 21 "20 and YOU have been built up upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, while Christ Jesus himself is the foundation cornerstone. 21 In union with him the whole building, being harmoniously joined together, is growing into a holy temple (naos) for Jehovah."

  So the use of "naos" does not obligatorily place the great crowd in heaven or before a figurative "temple sanctuary". Now let's notice the latter part of verse 15 ..... "and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them." Note that Jehovah will spread his tent or his holy abide of habitation over them. According to Londo's interpretation, the great crowd are a heavenly class. How could God spread his tent over those who are already dwelling and living in his area of habitation, heaven?

  Further proof that the "great crowd" is not in reference to a heavenly class, can be found in Revelation 21. Notice the similar wording between Revelation 7 and Revelation 21

  15 That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. = "3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them."

  16 They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down upon them nor any scorching heat, 17 because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them, and will guide them to fountains of waters of life.And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.” = And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.” Revelation 22:1 (continuing the vision says): "And he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of God and of the Lamb.."

  It is obvious that these are parallel accounts. Now this poses some problems for those who hold the view that the great crowd is a heavenly class.

  Why does God have to spread his tent over those who are already in heaven? Why does the scripture say God will reside with them, when he is already residing with them as they are in heaven? And why do both visions mention the wiping away of tears and death and pain when these things do not occur in heaven? Why will God be with them, when he is already with those who are in heaven?

  Finally, the parallel vision in Revelation 21 in verse 22 clears it all up for us: "And I did not see a temple in it (the holy city of New Jerusalem), for Jehovah God the Almighty is its temple, also the Lamb [is].." Yes, the word for temple here is a form of naos (literally “divine habitation (dwelling).” Gr., na·on). So when we examine the parallel vision, everything is cleared up for us.

  So how do "the great crowd" render sacred service before the throne day and night and in the Temple? Notice Revelation 7:10 "And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation [we owe] to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.” After surviving the great tribulation they are overjoyed because they have been saved by God and by the blood of the Lamb. They can render sacred service (worship, as you pointed out) in the Temple since Jehovah and Jesus are in their midst (dwelling among them, spreading his tent over them).

  I believe this covers everything in post 1 quite thoroughly.
• 

  tec

  Londo is correct in that there are not two classes of Christians... or two hopes.

  The Great Crowd render sacred service... they are taken from all nations, people, languages... whereas the 144000 are from Israel.

  The promise was first to Israel... then opened up to the rest of the world; to anyone who put their faith in and followed Christ. Branches from Israel were taken out so that other branches could be grafted in (people from all nations, tribes, languages, etc). Revelation also makes a point of stating that there are 12000 from each of the 12 tribes. Pretty specific.

  Now, no longer separate, the two (Israel and the nations who have all been washed clean in the blood of Christ) join together and become one flock. One hope. These are the bride... to the bridegroom.

  As well...

  From the dead, great and small, at the second resurrection... those who are found to be written in the lamb's book of life are also invited into the kingdom. These are not of the Body of Christ; the bride; because no living Christian will precede those Christians who have died, as Paul stated. Everyone who belonged to Chrsit - everyone washed clean in the blood of the lamb; Israel and the Great Crowd - has already been brought to life in the first resurrection. These are those who did good "to even the least of these brothers of mine"; those who showed the love and teachings of Christ; those who have that love within their hearts by nature. Just like in the parable of the sheep and the goats. These are the same as the sheep who are invited into the Kingdom based on the good they did to Him, by doing good to even the least of these: the hungry, the poor, those in prison... vs... the goats; those who did not feed Him, or clothe Him, or offer Him comfort (by doing none of these things for the poor, the weary, the burdened, the hungry, and the imprisoned)

  The sheep who are alive when Christ returns are invited into the kingdom; those who have died before then, but have their names written in the lamb's book of life are invited into the kingdom upon the second resurrection.

  Peace to you,

  tammy
• 

  Londo111

  Just in case I missed something, I went back through the 40 instances of naos and how the word is used. However, these instances only confirmed to me that naos referred to the temple sanctuary--that is the Holy Place and the Most Holy.

  The verses 1 Corinthians 3:16 and Ephesians 2:20, 21 only highlight the case and work in harmony with 1 Peter 2:5, which says, "And you yourselves, as living stones, are built up, a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ."

  Christians are living stones in the antitypical naos, the temple sanctuary. They share in a collective priesthood of believers. Though their hope is heavenly, their priesthood, their being living stones of the naos is true especially while they are on the earth.

  As you know, the Temple had two parts: the Holy and the Most Holy. Under the Law, priests would daily enter the Holy Place and render sacred service…lighting the lamps, setting out the sacred bread, lighting incense on the altar. While the Most Holy is what is antitypical of Heaven, the Holy Place is antitypical of the sacred service sons of God render while on earth, before they enter through the curtain, thier flesh (which screens them off from Heaven).

  Similarly, in Revelation, the Great Crowd render sacred service day and night in the Naos. They render priestly service as sons of God. This happens before the Great Tribulation and is why they survive it.

  In regard to the priestly work Revelation 5:9, 10 says, "And they sing a new song, saying, `Worthy are You to take the scroll, and to open the seals of it, because You were slain, and did redeem us to God in Your blood, out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation, and did make us kings and priests to our God, and we shall reign upon the earth.'"

  Revelation 20:6 says, "Happy and holy [is] he who is having part in the first rising again; the second death has not authority over these, but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

  Therefore, this priestly work is not confined to a mere 144000. Those with this hope, partake in the first resurrection which is the heavenly resurrection.

  I would like to point out that the Society's official view is that the Great Crowd are rendering sacred service day and night before the Tribulation, but they do not believe them to be in the temple sanctuary, but in the courtyard, and they do not view them as having a priestly function. They believe only the 144000 have a priestly function in the antitypical Holy Place, and during the 1000 years only they serve as priests, and only they are adopted as sons of God.

  For the Great Crowd to be in the Temple rendering priestly service poses a huge problem to that interpretation.