"We don't believe only JWs will survive Armageddon, only Jehovah can read hearts" - Logic Fallacies by JWs (or us)?

by cognisonance 51 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • DesirousOfChange
    DesirousOfChange

    I've never accepted that only dubs would survive. I've always looked at it as we just don't know and it's down to God.

    I've recently talked to a couple JWs who have made this kind of statement where they absolutely said that they never accepted what the WTS stated. Where did they ever get the idea that THEY could have any kind of independent thinking on doctrine??? That idea is just total bullsh!t as far as the WTS is concerned. It's not a buffet where you get to pick and choose. The F&DS "food at the proper time" is like Foie Gras where you are force fed or else.

    I had a CO question "Do you not agree that one must be baptized to gain salvation?"

    I said, "Oh, like Rahab?"

    (Me Bad!)

    Doc

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    *blows kisses* to blondie.

  • cognisonance
    cognisonance

    Sounds like the sqeaky well gets the oil, as the point of my thread has seemed to be derailed. Perhaps my anaylsis was too structured, analytical, mathmatical (I agree things don't add up!).

    Joking aside, I'm seriously trying to understand the reasoning behind what JWs believe, and if this specific subject is more so what the members are saying (even hi ranking ones elders, COs etc), but not what is officially written. And to repeat, if it is officially written that people can be saved outside of the JW group when Armageddon comes (despite not having the symbolic mark of baptism, despite somehow failing to respond to Jehovah drawing them, despite not responding to the good news or knowing about God), then this is a direct contradiction of what they write in other current-light articles. If both types of views are considered current-light, then this is a contradiction of epic proportions.

    But alas, I don't think the leaders ever had written the contrary view directly, only JW members seem to express it. I'll keep digging to see if I come up with any new details.

    By the way, I am aware of the FAQ on jw.org. This is a very carfully crafted piece of writing! First, the question is phrased such, that the first half of the answer is a red herring, when considering who will survive armagedon (so I've edited it to work for our discussion at hand). Besides most people asking that question are interested in themselves, not people already dead (though I could seem the wondering about that too, but that's not likely what they are really asking when wanting to know if JWs are the only people who will be saved).

    Do You Feel That You Are the Only People Who Will Be Saved [When Armageddon Comes]?
    No[Yes, but it's not our call]. Many millions who lived in centuries past and who weren’t Jehovah’s Witnesses will have an opportunity for salvation. The Bible explains that in God’s promised new world, “"there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous."” (Acts 24:15) Additionally, Many now living may yet begin to serve God [become part of Jehovah's Organization], and they too will gain salvation. In any case, it’s not our job to judge who will or won’t be saved. That assignment rests squarely in Jesus’ hands.—John 5:22, 27.

    So here is written proof that they are saying they think only JWs are the ones to survive Armageddon, but allow for the escape hatch, the special pleading. Even then, this isn't the same as them saying, "it's possible people outside our group can get saved when the end comes." All they say is it's Jesus' job to judge not them. Of course elsewhere they say Jesus will judge based on how people respond to the preaching work. Why leave that out? (I know this is a PR/marketing response). This answer is evasive. It's not an outright lie, but it does omit certain facts, and thus is a half truth. The very thing they say apostates do.

  • Elephant
    Elephant

    Well, the WTS would teach that I absolutely don't deserve paradise.

    ...so jgnat...is this statement true?...

    From "What Does the Bible Really Teach" 2005

    The Bible is scientifically accurate. chap 2, p. 18, pp 8

    The Bible is also historically accurate and reliable. Its accounts are specific. chap 2, p 18, pp 9

    Although some people say that certain parts of the Bible contradict other parts of it, such claims are unfounded. chap 2, p 18, footnote

    ...key words here- From 'What Does the Bible ReallyTeach" 2005...

    cognisance-

    And to repeat, if it is officially written that people can be saved outside of the JW group when Armageddon comes (despite not having the symbolic mark of baptism, despite somehow failing to respond to Jehovah drawing them, despite not responding to the good news or knowing about God), then this is a direct contradiction of what they write in other current-light articles. If both types of views are considered current-light, then this is a contradiction of epic proportions.

    ...sorry to dissapoint you my friend, but the same accusations of contradicitions are made at God himself...remember? how can a God of Love...allow....(this)...and...(that)....

    ...without a very important little word that starts with the letter 'F' you WILL continue to suffer from head spinning migraines...if you cannot handle the subject of 'religion'...then 'religion' (no matter which) is not for you...

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    Can someone explain to me, a non-JW, why the church believes Armageddon will have anything to do with them? The scriptures seem to indicate that Armageddon is a Jerusalem-centric battle that will erupt between the City of David and its neighbors, including Egypt, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Jordan and a large military force from the North, which many people think is either Russia or China. The combined army is supposed to be 200 million men, although biblical scolars say this number is not meant to be literal, but another way to say "a great number."

    The Jehovah's Witnesses seem to have internalized the prophecy, but how, I wonder, did they do it? Have any of you active members ever researched Armageddon? At the time your Bible Students re-routed the prophecy, Israel had not been established as a nation, and the emnity between it and its neighbors had not been established. But when the state of Israel was established, it was the fulfillment of biblical prophecy. Also, the emnity of its neighbors. But the Watchtower Bible Society hi-jacked the prophecy, and its members apparently never checked it out on their own.

    So why is it that the prophecy was never revisited by the leadership of the WBS and rewritten to reflect the establishment of Israel and its neighbors? The battle was supposed to have placed Israel's enemies in the valley to its north. When its enemies came down upon Israel, two prophets would be raised up to keep them at bay. After three and a half years, after their ministry was finished, Israel's enemies would kill the prophets and storm the city. After three and a half days, the bodies of the prophets would be resurrected and they would ascend into the heavens to meet the returning Christ and the saints. The glory of the returning Son of God would destroy the wicked, slaying all but a sixth of the enemy's forces. Then his feet would touch down upon the Mount of Olives and a great earthquake would split the mountain in twain. The Jews would flee into the valley thereof and fall at the feet of their Messiah. Then one would ask about the wounds in his hands, and he would reply, "Those are the wounds I received in the house of my friends." Then there would be a great lamentation in the land because the Jews would realize their fathers had killed their Messiah. The Messiah would then be led through the East Gate of the wall of Jerusalem and into the rebuilt Temple.

    Somehow, the JW leadership turned the battle into a worldwide conflageration between Satan and the JWs!

    So how did it happen? And does no one in the church think this is important enough to raise as an issue?

  • Yan Bibiyan
    Yan Bibiyan

    Elephant:

    ...they teach it because they CAN...spiritual things are just that, spiritual...here we are, you and I, of the same religion...and can interpret

    these teachings differently...why? because its not arithmetic, where the answer is only ONE..

    Paleeease!

    Walk up to your elders and declare that if you have the stones.

    We all know how it ends....

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep
    Can someone explain to me, a non-JW, why the church believes Armageddon will have anything to do with them?

    Because they think they are 'spirit directed' they think they don't need an education in the relevent fields in order to find 'correct' answers... or maybe they were just being dishonest. Rutherford's version of end times gave them a product to sell that no one else was peddling and kept him in luxury and Jack Daniels until he fell down the stairs going to fetch another bottle and died.

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    D.O.C highlights an interesting aspect of the JW "thinking". They know that they must not "run ahead.." (think for themselves) but of course a lot do actually muse on things like the Big A and the paradise etc.

    Then ,when the Cognitive Dissonance of believing that Big J is a God of Love and yet will murder babies amongst the 7Bill. he has to get rid of becomes too painful, they come up with the "he alone can read hearts" bit of, shudder, Independent Thinking.

    If when talking to them we can get them to focus on the area that they are beginning to independently work out for themselves, be it the Big A or something else, we can help them to start on the road to real critical thinking about all the WT Bull***t.

    Carla asked were we aware at the time that we were actually Apostate in our thinking when we were in and thinking logically about such things.

    Yes I was aware, even if I would not have used the word Apostate to explain it. The problem in my life had been that as a born-in there was constantly a raft of WT teaching that I simply could not swallow.

    I foolishly believed that God had an interest in the religion, because he had his name on it, and that they would eventually be put right in their thinking, as the Israelites were on many occasions.

    In the end the pain of Cognitive Dissonance screaming at me became too much, and I walked away, the best few steps I ever took.

  • bats in the belfry
    bats in the belfry

    • Can it be stated flatly that only baptized witnesses of Jehovah will survive Armageddon?—A. S., U.S.A.

    It would be misleading to answer this question with either a simple “Yes” or a “No.” The Scriptural answer of necessity must be a “qualified” one, and it is easy to see why.

    At 1 Corinthians 7:14 the Bible shows that God can consider as “holy” the minor children of a Christian parent. Though they are young and not yet to the point of being personally responsible to Jehovah, their parent is trying to develop in them a love of God and of the way of righteousness. It seems clear that at the time of the destructive war of Armageddon God will preserve them on the basis of the family merit of the Christian parent, even though the children are not yet dedicated and baptized.

    The reply must also be “qualified” because the Bible does not pointedly say how God is going to handle certain unusual cases, such as those involving mentally retarded persons who never had the capacity to learn about Jehovah and his purposes. Regarding these unbaptized persons, it is possible that family merit may apply as in the case of minor, irresponsible children who have a faithful believing parent or guardian.

    Nonetheless, these special instances do not diminish in any way the importance of dedication and baptism for those desiring God’s favor and protection through the destructive climax of this wicked system of things. God urges those truly interested in survival to seek righteousness and to call on him in faith. (Zeph. 2:2, 3; Joel 2:32) That obviously means that a person must do all in his power to do God’s will. And what is that will as regards baptism?

    Jesus was baptized in water, setting an example for Christians. (Matt. 3:13-17; 1 Pet. 2:21) Among his final instructions to his disciples is the command to “make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them.” (Matt. 28:19, 20) And one has but to read the book of Acts to see that early Christians recognized that baptism was a necessary step of obedience for all desiring God’s favor.—Acts 2:37-41; 16:30-33.

    Neither the Watch Tower Society nor any human today can lessen the force of that indication of God’s will. There appears to be no Biblical reason for thinking that a person who had a reasonable knowledge of Bible truth and knew the importance of dedicating his life to God and being baptized, but who held back from doing so, would be preserved by God through the coming destruction.

    We are aware that many hypothetical or “What if . . . ” cases can be raised, cases that seem to involve extenuating circumstances. What point, though, is there in speculating on these? Jesus’ illustration of the “sheep” and “goats” makes it plain that a time will come when the division between the “sheep” and the “goats” will be clear and final. (Matt. 25:31-46) Instead of looking for “loopholes” in God’s arrangement for salvation, what all humans who desire preservation need to do is take full advantage of God’s merciful opportunity to serve him. And they need to do so now, before it becomes too late to begin thinking about becoming a servant of Jehovah. The “sheep” who are preserved into “everlasting life” will be responsible persons who do God’s will as completely as possible. (1 John 2:17) The Bible shows without doubt that Jehovah’s will for humans today includes being baptized and being public witnesses of him.—Rom. 10:10.

    Jesus compared our time, faced as it is with the end of this wicked system of things, to the days of Noah. (Matt. 24:36-39) And drawing on Noah’s experience, the apostle Peter added: “That which corresponds to this is also now saving you, namely, baptism, (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the request made to God for a good conscience).” (1 Pet. 3:20, 21) So all who desire salvation ought to recognize how vital the step of baptism is.

    w71 1/15, pages 63-64





    It is important to understand what the Bible says about the destruction to come at the end of this system of things. In his illustration of the sheep and the goats Jesus indicated that a separating work would be done “when the Son of man arrives in his glory,” and that persons would be classed as either “sheep” or “goats.” (Matt. 25:31-46) In part, the basis for the separation would be the reaction of people to the preaching of the good news of the established kingdom. That preaching work is now being done by Jehovah’s witnesses. Jesus explained that those on earth who favorably responded to that message and treated kindly its bearers would be classed as “sheep” and would enter into “everlasting life.” The rest of mankind who did not respond favorably to the preaching work and offered no aid to those who carried the Kingdom message would be classed as “goats” and would go, not into a temporary death, but into “everlasting cutting-off” at the time when judgment is executed.

    But some persons, appreciating that millions of people are to be resurrected and given an opportunity to serve God, wonder if the millions of individuals living today who apparently have never heard the Kingdom message preached will be everlastingly destroyed without ever having had a witness about God’s purposes. It is true that at present it appears that there are vast numbers of mankind who have not heard the Kingdom preaching. Also, from what the Bible says and from conditions in the world, we know that we are in the “last days.” But we do not know just how much more will be accomplished in preaching the Kingdom message before the end comes. (2 Tim. 3:1-5; Matt. 24:3-13) If at the end of the second world war someone had said that the Kingdom preaching would be carried out, by more than a million publishers, in over 190 lands, including communistic countries, many might have found that hard to believe. Yet, Jehovah has blessed his people, and that is exactly what is being accomplished. So, if it is Jehovah’s will to have this message personally carried to the millions on earth who seemingly have not yet heard it, that will be accomplished. If he chooses, he could see to it that this message is spread in ways that we cannot yet imagine. Jesus did foretell that “this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.” (Matt. 24:14) We can rest assured that God will see that the preaching work is done to his satisfaction. After that “the end” comes.

    Then those who correspond with “goats,” whether in China or elsewhere, will be pronounced “cursed” and will not be permitted to survive that “end” into God’s new order of things. Since these go into symbolic “fire” (like the Devil and his angels), their punishment will be everlasting. They will never be resurrected.—Matt. 25:41-46.

    “Just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more; and you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be. But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, and they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.”—Ps. 37:10, 11.

    w65 9/15, pages 575-576



    We cannot be dogmatic about this matter, as God is the judge. However, if Jehovah God expresses an adverse judgment against certain individuals, and does this through his King Christ Jesus at Armageddon, there must be some sort of finality to God’s decision. If so, those destroyed by the judgment of God in the battle of Armageddon are really destroyed. Ezekiel chapter 9 appears to refer to Armageddon, and verse 6 states, “Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark.” Those unmarked by a favorable reception of God’s warning receive no mercy from him. This is no injustice on God’s part. If it were a case of absolute justice he would spare no one, as everyone, young or old, is an imperfect sinner. It is only through the exercise of his love and mercy that anyone is preserved through Armageddon or is resurrected.

    Children are affected by the course of their parents, and parents are warned that their iniquity is visited on their offspring unto the third and fourth generation. (Ex. 20:5, 6) Parents are commanded to instruct their children in God’s way, and if in these last days parents refuse to heed the divine instruction and warning they bring destruction upon themselves and their small children at Armageddon. (Deut. 6:6, 7; Eph. 6:4) According to justice God can leave such children dead, for, as Ezekiel showed, all die in their iniquity. (Ezek. 3:17-19; 33:1-6) Parents should remember that their wrong course unfavorably affects their children and may bring their offspring to destruction at Armageddon, just as a right course on the part of parents may put their small children in the way of preservation during Armageddon and opportunity for eternal life in the new world to follow.

    w50 11/15, page 463

  • cognisonance
    cognisonance

    Bats, thanks for finding that 1971 Watchtower question, "Can it be stated flatly that only baptized witnesses of Jehovah will survive Armageddon?" Summarizing and commenting on the answer:

    Instances where non-baptised JWs might get saved:

    • Cases involving minor children living with baptised JWs who aren't old/mature enough to be responsible to Jehovah
    • Mentally disabled who don't have the cognative capacity to learn, may survive based on family merit (what happens if they don't have JW family members?)

    Otherwsise, a person risks getting killed if they don't get dedicated and baptised. (While they do use scriptures to show the importance of baptism, ultimately when all else fails, they use the logic fallacy of appeal to fear 1 (i.e. you risk getting killed if you don't get baptised, be safe instead of sorry))

    Then they say they are aware of hypothetical (as if the caveats they provide aren't hypothetical) "What if..." cases that involve extenuating circumstances (metally disabled people, that sounds extenuating to me). They say that considering these has little point and would amount to just speculation. This means they have just acknowledged that they are speculating as well.

    Nevertheless, ultimately Jesus will decide won't he, they reason. They also liken such "what if..." thinking to a person just looking for loopholes so that they don't have to get baptised. The overall context of the article does appear to be geared to a person asking this question that has been around JWs (raised in the truth but not baptised, studied but not baptised, etc).

    It really doesn't seem to be answering the question from the perspective of if a person wants to know if ~99% of the world's population will be destroyed at Armageddon (i.e. all people who aren't baptised JWs, or minor childern of JWs, or MRDD people with JW family). Nonetheless, this article does imply such mass killing is to happen. One very telling word they use to show why this is the case is their use of the word "extenuating." This conveys the idea of a small number of exceptions.

    In essence the answer they give is the following: Only baptised JWs, and perhaps those with extenuating circumstances, will survive armageddon. Nonetheless if they don't become baptised JWs, the vast majority of humans (man, woman, and child) risk being killed by God.

    To me this is still different than saying: We don't believe only JWs will get saved. We don't really know what will happen. It's up to God to read the heart and judge.


    1 Bennet, Bo. "Appeal to Fear", Logically Fallacious. 21 Sept. 2012. <http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallacies/32-appeal-to-fear>. I like his example, "If you don’t accept X as true, something terrible will happen to you. Therefore X must be true." Let's substitute with the JW stance, "If you don't accept the need to be a baptised JW, then you risk dying at Armageddon. Therefore the need to be a baptised JW must be ture."

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