These are great. Marking.
Powerful questions to DEBUNK the flood of Noah's day
by Black Man 63 Replies latest jw friends
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jam
Here,s one to consider, how many employee does it
take to maintain your local zoo for one year?
The ark, two or seven of all the animals on the face of the earth.
Give me a break.
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cognisonance
Yup. These people believe Satan planted scientific evidence as a "false flag":
I don't think they have ever taught that scientific evidence has really be fradualently planted by Satan. At most they just say that science could be misinterpreting the evidence, but I don't think they ever said Satan has planted "false flags."
Also, in the 80s they had a series of articles denouncing the young-earth creationism that was going on (court cases were being fought at the time to give creation science equal time with evolution science in public schools). In one of the articles, the Watchtower (or awake) said that a God of truth would not plant false evidence. They refer to a non-JW woman touring a muesem that didn't believe Dinosaurs were either that old (or existed). She said God must have put them there just to fool people. This the Watchtower says is not a valid way of thinking, as God could not be dishonest. Basically they say we can't use our beliefs (in this case the peson thought life has only been around for a 6000 years or so) to then assert that scientific evidence is false, that God must have put it there to fool people.*
* Though I do admit we the have a problem: The evidence against a global flood is overwhelming, then why would God make his divine global flood not leave any evidence. It's as if it was to make the scientists think it never happened. Why would God be so dishonest. Why go out of his way to not leave evidence, for surely if a natural flood ever happened to cover the earth, there would be evidence.
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John Kesler
You may encounter some local-flood proponents, who argue that the flood wasn't worldwide. I'll include some things that disprove that option. There are various problems with this idea, of course: Why build a large ark rather than simply have Noah and his family migrate to an area that wouldn't be flooded? How could water cover the highest mountains of any area for months and not flood the adjacent area? But the one I want to focus on concerns birds.
Genesis 7:1-4, 21-23 reads as follows in the NRSV: 7:1 Then Yahweh said to Noah, ‘Go into the ark, you and all your household, for I have seen that you alone are righteous before me in this generation. 2 Take with you seven pairs of all clean animals, the male and its mate; and a pair of the animals that are not clean, the male and its mate; 3 and seven pairs of the birds of the air also, male and female, to keep their kind alive on the face of all the earth. 4 For in seven days I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights; and every living thing that I have made I will blot out from the face of the ground.’ 21 And all flesh died that moved on the earth, birds, domestic animals, wild animals, all swarming creatures that swarm on the earth, and all human beings; 22 everything on dry land in whose nostrils was the breath of life died. 23 He blotted out every living thing that was on the face of the ground, human beings and animals and creeping things and birds of the air; they were blotted out from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those that were with him in the ark. These passages seem pretty clear-cut: Yahweh flooded the whole world, so representatives of each animal, including birds, had to be preserved. This is born out in Genesis 8, where the animals disembarked: 15 Then God said to Noah, 16 ‘Go out of the ark, you and your wife, and your sons and your sons’ wives with you. 17 Bring out with you every living thing that is with you of all flesh—birds and animals and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth—so that they may abound on the earth, and be fruitful and multiply on the earth.’ 18 So Noah went out with his sons and his wife and his sons’ wives. 19 And every animal, every creeping thing, and every bird, everything that moves on the earth, went out of the ark by families. If the local-flood theorists are correct, and only an area of Mesopotamia was flooded, then why take any birds aboard the ark? Wouldn't birds be able to fly to nonflooded areas? We know specifically of two birds that were taken aboard the ark: the raven and the dove (Genesis 8:6-12). Since all birds were taken aboard "to keep their kind alive," then local-flood theorists must believe that in the over 1,000 years from creation to the Flood (keep in mind that Noah himself was 600 when the Flood came! Genesis 7:6, and see the Genesis-5 genealogy), neither ravens nor doves had populated areas beyond Mesopotamia, and thus had to be preserved. Consider also that Noah would only need to take aboard birds from areas that got flooded. These birds would have to adapt to a nonflooded area when let off the ark, which means that they would have to adapt to another local ecosystem, which means that they would have been just fine migrating. If they repopulated the post-Flood area, then their local ecosystem would have been completely changed by the Great Flood anyway. And here is a problem with the flood story in general, posted by someone on another list that I participate on:
How did Noah know the sex of all those critters? Who can tell if a snake is male or female? Although some birds have sexual dimorphism some do not. Unless you are an expert naturalist, how can you tell which is a male if males and females look alike? Even worse, who would know if a scorpion or a spider was a male or female? Also, some species of scorpions reproduce parthenogenetically and I wonder how one could find a male?
But there I go again forgetting that we only need one "kind". Spiders and scorpions are both arachnida so the 1,700 or so species of scorpions and the 40,000 species of spiders would have evolved from the same arachnida "kind". But we still have a big problem. As far back as the 1st Egyptian Dynasty things like spiders and scorpions were clearly distinct "kinds" and not significantly different then than they are now. But the1st Egyptian Dynasty began about 3,000 BC, which is about 5,000 years ago and Genesis tells us that earth was created about 6,000 years ago. The flood was at least 1,000 years after creation week so there is no time left for these very different species to have evolved. I think we need another bunch of miracles here.
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james_woods
I always wondered how both the fresh-water fishes and the salt-water fishes survived while all the water was mixed together for all that time during the flood.
I always wondered how the land vegetation survived - practically no plants can live through being submerged under water for weeks at a time.
I always wondered where all that water came from...there is not enough water today to cover the highest mountains, etc. etc. etc...
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jam
JK: Great points.. Again by using the Bible alone you
can easily debunk the flood story.
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jam
I ask a pioneer ( I know he was a pioneer because I
would see him early in the morning in his polyester suit)
that question, Where did all the water go.
His response, it went into the ground and he look at me with
this big smile. So I said don,t you think the ground would have
been too saturated for Noah to step out of the ark so soon
He told me, let me get back to you on that. That was six years ago.
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Finkelstein
The palatable reason why the Flood story was told really has more significance in understanding the mind set of the ancient Hebrew civilization.
In the unsurmountable level of ignorance of the world the ancients had to endure, gives credence toward the reason why so many gods of different
variates were imagined and created, as well their containing actions in relation to the people who worshiped them.
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undercover
The Flood was to destroy the wickedness of the day. Eight (still sinful) people preserved. Afterwards it didn't take long for wickedness to rear its ugly head once more. What purpose did it serve to kill everything off if you didn't fix the core problem - sinful mankind?
Same with the tower at Babel. "Oh - look! they're using their common language to communicate and build cities and towers. Let's fuck em up". Yet, look at the cities and the towers today, despite the attempt to disrupt mankind's desire to congregate together and build tall buildings. How'd that work out for ya, ya old Hebrew prick of a god?
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King Solomon
Cognisonance said:
I don't think they have ever taught that scientific evidence has really be fradualently planted by Satan. At most they just say that science could be misinterpreting the evidence, but I don't think they ever said Satan has planted "false flags."
It may not have appeared in print, but I've heard many a JW say it....
While I agree it's speculative, it's not a violation of JW eschatology, as Jesus hisself said that Satan would use deception to mislead humans, appearing as "an angel of light". That seems vague enough to cover science being used as a tool of Satan to mislead mankind to not follow JW, which is a common claim for Xians.
She said God must have put them there just to fool people. This the Watchtower says is not a valid way of thinking, as God could not be dishonest. Basically they say we can't use our beliefs (in this case the person thought life has only been around for a 6000 years or so) to then assert that scientific evidence is false, that God must have put it there to fool people.*
That line of reasoning simply begs the question: even though God may not be able to lie, why would He permit Satan to plant "false flags" (false evidence) in order to deceive mankind? I mean, if you accept that such fossil evidence exists, then SOMEONE needs to take the fall for it (YHWH, Satan, or scientists). With increasing scientific knowledge, (almost) no one in their right mind would argue say, Flat Earth. So it's harder and harder to blame the scientists, as many discliplines convergence to the reality. Hence, such a conspiracy to deceive those smart scientists is required by someone known as Satan!!
But even there, Satan's deception strikes most people intuitively as fundamentally unfair, where if someone is deceived by someone else to commit a crime and they are NOT aware of the deception, then they are NOT liable; they lacked intent to commit the crime.
But it's actually worse for God than that, as the point of the original conflict between YWHW and Satan is the authority issue was raised, Satan claiming he was superior to rule the Earth.
The problem is, who is supposed to decide? An impartial Judge like YHWH, who's also a party to the matter? YES, that IS the official JW story.
However, the issue in the trial isn't authority per se (the trial is for show, since the outcome is pre-determined, a fact revealed by prophecy), but is simply conducted to see if humans will follow Satan or YHWH. So even if God cannot lie, why does He allow Satan to lie and deceive, to "play dirty"? If this WERE a trial, YHWH is an incompetant presiding Judge for allowing Satan to introduce invalid evidence into the trial!
However you cut it, the issue always points back to the same thing: God created the flawed scenario here, as the creator of angels and humankind. Anyone who builds a flawed product isn't "perfect", and like the old saying in the military goes, "the fish stinks from the head down". Someone cannot take the credit for creating something, while then denying their responsibility when their flawed product causes harm.
I made a video to that effect, with God as the defendent in a product liability lawsuits, filed by class-action lawyers who seek damages over a failed recall (Noah's Flood) for a defective product (man), where God only offered a series of lame excuses when He failed to correct the defect: