Did Paul Invent Christianity?

by smmcroberts 49 Replies latest watchtower bible

mP

smmcroberts:
Christ Alone: "What exactly does Paul ever say that directly contradicts what Jesus said?"
Did you read my blog http://smmcroberts.net/blog/did-paul-invent-christianity/? It is very clearly set forth there: Jesus said the law would never pass away and the way to salvation was to keep the law. Paul said the law passed away and the way to salvation was to believe in Jesus.
mP ->
Your blog shows that you have completely ignored the political situation of Judea at that time. If you understood the problems that religion brought to the peace of Israel then you will understand why the Flavians had to destroy and replace it. The Jews were fanatical back, then just like some modern Islamic groups. They were quite happy to die, kill each other and anyone who got in their way. In fact if you read about the siege of Jerusalem in 70aD you will see that several of the major groups were killing each other inside the city, whil the Romans were outside.
The Romans almost never destroyed temples or religions, they were quite hapy to let anyone worship any god. Their only requirement is that the locals acknowledge the authority of Rome. This is part of the motivation for emperor worship etc. Gods are symbols of authority. The priests use god as their authority. In the case of the Jews, the high priests told the locals to fight. In fact the rebellion started when the high priest stabbed and killed a roman general.
Its not hard to see that the Romans could not allow this to continue. They needed a religion that was peaceful and taught the Jews that their messiah had come. The religion had to tell them to accept their fate and their Roman masters. If you examine Jesus teachings and the remainder of the NT, you will see that everything that is said is compatible with this basic premise. Jesus doesnt care about slaves, but he does say to pay taxes. Continue to look at other things he said and you will see what i say is true.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Jewish_Revolt
According to Josephus , the violence, which began at Caesarea in 66, was provoked by Greeks sacrificing birds in front of a local synagogue. [4] The Roman garrison did not intervene and the long-standing Hellenistic and Jewish religious tensions took a downward spiral. In reaction, one of the Jewish Temple clerks Eliezar ben Hanania ceased prayers and sacrifices for the Roman Emperor at the Temple. Protests over taxation joined the list of grievances and random attacks on Roman citizens and perceived 'traitors' occurred in Jerusalem
...
During the infighting inside the city walls, a stockpiled supply of dry food was intentionally burned by the Sicarii to induce the defenders to fight against the siege, instead of negotiating peace; as a result many city dwellers and soldiers died of starvation during the siege
...
The two Zealot leaders, John of Gischala and Simon Bar Giora , only ceased hostilities and joined forces to defend the city when the Romans began to construct ramparts for the siege
...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleazar_ben_Simon
Eleazar ben Simon was a Zealot leader during the First Jewish-Roman War who fought against the armies of Cestius Gallus , Vespasian , and Titus Flavius . From the onset of the war in 66 CE until the destruction of the temple in 70 CE, he fought vehemently against the Roman garrisons in Judea and against his fellow Jewish political opponents in order to establish an independent Jewish state at Jerusalem.
...
Days prior to the siege of Jerusalem, Eleazar ben Simon was betrayed by John of Gischala and killed. According to Josephus, John sent a party to the Zealot stronghold in the Temple to offer a sacrifice before the coming festival of Passover. Yet when Eleazar and his Zealots opened the gates to permit entry, John's forces slaughtered Eleazar and his officials in order to regain the support of the Zealots. Shortly after Eleazar's death in the summer of 70 AD, Titus Flavius crushed the armies of Simon, John, and Eleazar, crucifying thousands of rebels outside the city. Josephus estimates that approximately one million Jews were killed in the siege, not to mention the destruction of the sacred Temple.
Three major characters in jesus life were military leaders that fought Rome.
Have you checked more history of the times ? GO check who Simon of Cyrene was..ill post about it afterwards, goto run.
smmcroberts

MP: "Your blog shows that you have completely ignored the political situation of Judea at that time."
Yes, you are correct; my blog is not about the political situation of Judea. That's why it ignores it.
I welcome your comments and all of the extra-biblical light they shed on the situation, but it goes beyond the intent of my blog, which was to point out the overwhelming influence of Paul from a strictly biblical perspective (which is the perspective I try to assume when in front of JWs, or else I might as well talk to the wall). I think it has served its purpose in bringing together some interesting replies, including yours.
Maybe you should start a new post about the political situation of Judea.
mP
smmcroberts:
Yes, you are correct; my blog is not about the political situation of Judea. That's why it ignores it.
mP
The story of Jesus ministry is not some fairy tail where the real facts on the ground are irrelevant. In fact the complete opposite is true. Everything in the gospels, where he went, who he met and the parables he told are all related to the rebellion and political situation in Judea at that time.
To ignore the situation is the completely wrong way to understand this. TO pretend the Romans were cruel, unfair and ignore the crimes of the various jewish terrorist groups is also ignorance and allows one to misunderstand the message under the gospels.
As i have shown most of the situations, towns mentioned, names of people in the narrative can all be connected to the conquest of Titus. If you follow Titus and understand the problems from his perspective then you will understand why he destroyed the temple and not Jersualem. If you understand Roman religious policy you will also learn they never destroyed religious places of worhsip. In fact they always paid some respect but they did have conditions. The realised religion is very powerful. Its no surprise that the biggest government org in Rome was that in charge of religion. The title of this position was Pontifis Maximus. Its also no surprise that this old Roman institution became the Roman Universal Church. Catholic means Universal, it doesnt mean xian. The catholics never claim to be xian exclusively. They do however claim to be the universal church of the empire. They basically want to the umbrella church who controlled all the other splinter churches underneath them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontifex_Maximus
The Pontifex Maximus (Latin, literally: "greatest pontiff") was the high priest of the College of Pontiffs (Collegium Pontificum) in ancient Rome. This was the most important position in the ancient Roman religion, open only to patricians until 254 BC, when a plebeian first occupied this post. A distinctly religious office under the early Roman Republic, it gradually became politicized until, beginning with Augustus, it was subsumed into the Imperial office. Its last use with reference to the emperors is in inscriptions of Gratian [1] (reigned 375–383) who, however, then decided to omit the words "pontifex maximus" from his title. [2] [3]
The word "pontifex" later became a term used for Christian bishops, [4] including the Bishop of Rome, [5] and the title of "Pontifex Maximus" was applied within the Roman Catholic Church to the Pope as its chief bishop. It is not included in the Pope's official titles, [6] but appears on buildings, monuments and coins of popes of Renaissance and modern times.
...
Duties
The main duty of the Pontifices was to maintain the pax deorum or "peace of the gods." [12] [13] [14]
The immense authority of the sacred college of pontiffs was centered on the Pontifex Maximus, the other pontifices forming his consilium or advising body. His functions were partly sacrificial or ritualistic, but these were the least important. His real power lay in the administration of jus divinum or divine law; [15] the information collected by the pontifices related to the Roman religious tradition was bound in a corpus which summarized dogma and other concepts. The chief departments of jus divinum may be described as follows:
The regulation of all expiatory ceremonials needed as a result of pestilence, lightning, etc.
The consecration of all temples and other sacred places and objects dedicated to the gods.
The regulation of the calendar; both astronomically and in detailed application to the public life of the state.
The administration of the law relating to burials and burying-places, and the worship of the Manes or dead ancestors.
The superintendence of all marriages by conferratio, i.e. originally of all legal patrician marriages.
The administration of the law of adoption and of testamentary succession.
The regulation of the public morals, and fining and punishing offending parties.
The pontifices had many relevant and prestigious functions such as being in charge of caring for the state archives, the keeping the official minutes of elected magistrates (see Fasti) and list of magistrates, and they kept the records of their own decisions (commentarii) and of the chief events of each year, the so-called "public diaries", the Annales maximi. [16]
x
Its of course no surprise that the great Julius Caesar took this as one of his first offices on his way to glory and infamy. We can see the Romans were not stupid, they were highly ntelligent and they understood that religion was a method of control.
If you check each and every town in Jesus ministry you will find a similar narrative in Josephus record of Titus campaign. You will also find black comedy that describes the same items as what Jesus mentions.
Just look at the shear connection of the Flavian family. LOok at the names in the gospels, how does one exaplin the shear chance that every major leader of a terrorist rebellious group is mentioned by name and their base or home town is also mentioned ?
mP

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_of_cyrene
Simon of Cyrene (????? "Hearkening; listening", Standard Hebrew Šim?on, Tiberian Hebrew Šim?ôn) was the man compelled by the Romans to carry the cross of Jesus as Jesus was taken to his crucifixion, according to all three Synoptic Gospels [1] [2] [3]
And as they came out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name: him they compelled to bear his cross [2]
And they compelled one Simon a Cyrenian, who passed by, coming out of the country, the father of Alexander and Rufus, to bear his cross. [4]
By contrast, the Gospel of John does not mention Simon, saying only that Jesus carried the cross himself, or carried his own cross ( John 19:17 ). This may mean that Jesus received no assistance on the journey to Calvary; or it may be that John wished to emphasise that Jesus took the load of the cross and therefore of the sins of mankind upon himself.
Lets check Roman records if there is any connection between a Simon and a Rufus.
http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/war-7.htm
s. Now Simon would not tell them, but bid them call for their captain; and when they ran to call him, Terentius Rufus (2) who was left to command the army there, came to Simon, and learned of him the whole truth, and kept him in bonds, and let Caesar know that he was taken. Thus did God bring this man to be punished for what bitter and savage tyranny he had exercised against his countrymen by those who were his worst enemies; and this while he was not subdued by violence, but voluntarily delivered himself up to them to be punished, and that on the very same account that he had laid false accusations against many Jews, as if they were falling away to the Romans, and had barbarously slain them for wicked actions do not escape the Divine anger, nor is justice too weak to punish offenders, but in time overtakes those that transgress its laws, and inflicts its punishments upon the wicked in a manner, so much more severe, as they expected to escape it on account of their not being punished immediately. (3) Simon was made sensible of this by falling under the indignation of the Romans. This rise of his out of the ground did also occasion the discovery of a great number of others Of the seditious at that time, who had hidden themselves under ground. But for Simon, he was brought to Caesar in bonds, when he was come back to that Cesarea which was on the seaside, who gave orders that he should be kept against that triumph which he was to celebrate at Rome upon this occasion.
Strange another connection ?
What are the odds of that ?
Surely you can see something strange is going on here...
mP

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrene,_Libya
Tensions came to a head in the insurrection of the Jews of Cyrene under Vespasian (73 AD, the First Roman-Jewish War )
Strange of all the places in the Roman Empire a place causing problems to Vespasian is also mentioned. Simon is a typical Jewish name so here we have aconnection of trouble maker to follower of jesus.
http://www.livius.org/ja-jn/jewish_wars/jwar06.html
Their revolt started in Cyrene , where one Lukuas -sometimes called Andreas- ordered the Jews to destroy the pagan temples of Apollo, Artemis, Hecate, Demeter, Isis and Pluto, and to assail the worshippers. The latter fled to Alexandria , where they captured and killed many Jews. (With a population of some 150,000 Jews, Alexandria was Judaism's largest city.) In 116, the Jews organized themselves and had their revenge. The temples of gods like Nemesis, Hecate and Apollo were destroyed; the same fate befell the tomb of Pompey, the Roman general who had captured Jerusalem almost two centuries before.
What are the chances of that ?
Herre we have Luke mentioned in history and the gospels. More eerie connections.
smmcroberts

mP: " The story of Jesus ministry is not some fairy tail where the real facts on the ground are irrelevant."
Well, that's certainly debatable. I see no evidence to believe that there ever was a Jesus. But in any case, that's not the topic of this thread, which I feel you have hijacked.
I bow to your superior knowledge regarding the "facts on the ground", but my blog is directed at JWs who will only listen to the Bible itself. Experience has taught me that it's futile to present college-level material to grade-school level minds.
Please start your own thread about your subject.
Thanks!
mP

mcrroberts:
mP: "The story of Jesus ministry is not some fairy tail where the real facts on the ground are irrelevant."
Well, that's certainly debatable. I see no evidence to believe that there ever was a Jesus. But in any case, that's not the topic of this thread, which I feel you have hijacked.
I bow to your superior knowledge regarding the "facts on the ground", but my blog is directed at JWs who will only listen to the Bible itself. Experience has taught me that it's futile to present college-level material to grade-school level minds.
Please start your own thread about your subject.
Thanks!
mP -> mc
My reply is very much part of the answer about the original post. As i have noted you will notice that Josephus the historian makes several cameo appearances in the gospels. As i previously have shown, pauls last trip to Rome is a perfect match for Josephus own trip which ironically also occured during the 60s. They might have even cuaght the same ship if paul ever existed.
dog is god

Paul was just one of many hijackers. His writings worked best to keep people under control as far as Constantine felt.
mP

Interestingly some parts of Pauls life also match those of Apollo of Tyana. Both were born in antioch and Pauls journeys in Asia are also an exact match with Apollo. Its not hrd to see that some parts of the Paul character are taken from Apollo. I have never seen a satisfactory reason for why Saul had to change his name. It could not have helped his ministry in anyway and seems part of the scam to associate him with another person by way of hijacking their name.
frankiespeakin

Have a look:
http://www.voiceofdharma.org/books/pp/ch3.htm

Did Paul Invent Christianity?

Duties

Share this