WT declares JWs are not "Great Crowd" (page 2)

RayPublisher

The WTS defines that you can be before the throne on earth as well as in heaven. They "explain" that as the earth being god's footstool before the throne.

PURE SOPHISTRY!

maccauk11

where did he see them ..... could it be in heaven before the throne

maccauk11

where are the twelve tribes of the watchtower society

read it like this

and i heard the number of them, and they were sealed a hundred and forty four thousand of all the tribes of the children of the watchtower society

not quite the same is it

tornapart

Thanks Blondie.. interesting thread..

RP.. I like that word...

TD

The "great crowd" is a small subset of the "other sheep" It is only those "other sheep" who survive the great tribulation. The Revelation book actually states that they are the "firstfruits" of the "other sheep" (p. 203) Those of the "great crowd" who who die prior to Armageddon lose their status as "prospective members" of the "great crowd" and are relagated to the much larger group of "other sheep" who are resurrected. JW literature doesn't deal with this often, but when it does, it is very clear:...

Blondie:

I don't disagree with this fascilly, but the implication seems to be that "Other Sheep" may exist apart from the "Great Crowd" during the "Time Of The End." Is that even possible in JW theology?

The JW salvific model is based on Revelation 7 and it describes two groups and only two groups.

*** Isaiah’s Prophecy: Light for all Mankind volume II (2001) pp. 241-242***
Jesus’ disciples entertain one of two hopes. First, a “little flock” numbering 144,000 has been gathered—anointed Christians of both Jewish and Gentile backgrounds who are “the Israel of God” and have the hope of ruling with Jesus in his heavenly Kingdom. (Luke 12:32; Galatians 6:16; Revelation 14:1) Second, in the last days, “a great crowd” of “other sheep” have manifested themselves. These have the hope of living forever on a paradise earth. Before the outbreak of the great tribulation, this multitude—whose number is not foreordained—serve alongside the little flock, and both groups form “one flock” under “one shepherd.”—Revelation 7:9, 10; John 10:16.

There is not a third group during the Christian era and there are consequently no "Other Sheep" apart from the "Great Crowd" during that Era.

In various ways, this is affirmed over and over and over again in JW literature. Since 1966, it has been stated many times that the "Great Crowd" and "Modern-Day Other Sheep" are identical during the 'Time Of The End"

*** w01 5/15 p. 15 ‘Behold! The Great Crowd!’ ***
In a stirring talk on “The Great Multitude,” delivered to about 20,000 conventioners, J. F. Rutherford presented Scriptural proof that the modern-day “other sheep” are identical with that “great crowd” of Revelation 7:9. (John 10:16)

*** w03 2/15 p. 19 What Does the Lord’s Evening Meal Mean to You? ***
But on May 31, 1935, in a discourse given at a convention of Jehovah’s Witnesses in Washington, D.C., U.S.A., it was Scripturally explained that the “great crowd” (“great multitude,” King James Version) refers to the “other sheep” who live during the time of the end.

*** Isaiah’s Prophecy: Light for all Mankind volume II (2001) p. 255 ***
Finally, in 1935 the other sheep living during the time of the end of this system of things were recognized as being the great crowd seen in vision by the apostle John.

*** w00 1/1 p. 12 “The Little One” Has Become “a Thousand” ***
Who are marked on the forehead by that “man”? “Other sheep,” ones who have the hope of living eternally on a paradise earth. (John 10:16; Psalm 37:29) In 1935 this group of “other sheep” were discerned to be the “great crowd . . . out of all nations” seen in vision by the apostle John. (Revelation 7:9-14)

***Revelation: Its Grand Climax At Hand! (1988) pp. 120-122***
5 The understanding of Revelation 7:9-17 was now about to burst forth in all its sparkling brilliance! (Psalm 97:11) The Watchtower magazine had repeatedly expressed the hope that a convention scheduled for May 30 to June 3, 1935, in Washington, D.C., U.S.A., would be “a real comfort and benefit” to those pictured by Jehonadab. That it proved to be! In a stirring talk on “The Great Multitude,” delivered to about 20,000 conventioners, J. F. Rutherford, president of the Watch Tower Society, gave Scriptural proof that the modern-day other sheep are identical with that great crowd of Revelation 7:9

If this were not the case, it would be possible at least in theory for JW's to teach that there were "Other Sheep" all through the Christian Era. But we both know that's not the case. JW's teach that the "heavenly hope" was the only hope clear up until the proximity of the end made the identification of the Great Crowd possible.

And it absolutely has to be that way. Christians who live their life and die just like unbelievers do not experience either of the two destinies that JW's teach Revelation 7 describes:

*** w95 5/15 p. 18 Flashes of Light—Great and Small (Part 1) ***
They also discerned that the Bible holds out two destinies—a heavenly one for the 144,000 anointed footstep followers of Christ and a paradise earth for an unnumbered “great crowd” of “other sheep.” (Revelation 7:9; 14:1; John 10:16)

For someone who does not attain either of these two destinies, there's no point in being Christian (i.e. JW) at all, because in JW theology, everyone gets resurrected anyway.

This is also reflected in JW discussions of the Ransom. Prior to the Millennium and the "General Resurrection" the Ransom applies to only two groups of people:

*** Draw Close To Jehovah (2002) p. 197 “God’s Wisdom in a Sacred Secret” ***
Would anointed Christians be the only ones to enjoy the blessings promised to Abraham? No, for Jesus’ sacrifice benefits the whole world. (1 John 2:2) In time, Jehovah revealed that an unnumbered “great crowd” would survive the end of Satan’s system

*** Isaiah’s Prophecy: Light for all Mankind volume II (2001) p. 211***
Having suffered to the point of death, Jesus was able to provide the sacrifice needed to help others acquire a righteous standing. To whom does this righteous standing come? First, to his anointed followers. Because they exercise faith in Jesus’ sacrifice, Jehovah declares them righteous with a view to adopting them as sons and making them joint heirs with Jesus. (Romans 5:19; 8:16, 17) Then, “a great crowd” of “other sheep” exercise faith in Jesus’ shed blood and enjoy a righteous standing with a view to being friends of God and survivors of Armageddon.—Revelation 7:9; 16:14, 16; John 10:16; James 2:23, 25.

*** w92 3/1 p. 18 The Day to Remember ***
Jesus said: “He that exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life; he that disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him.” (John 3:36) Faith exercised in Jesus’ sacrifice leads to everlasting life—immortal life in heaven for a “little flock” of anointed Christians and life eternal on a paradise earth for a great crowd of “other sheep.”—Luke 12:32; 23:43; John 10:16.

The JW's are in a real pickle here as it becomes more and more apparent that adults in 1935 have died off. It wouldn't surprise me if they do eventualy repudiate Christianity as their own theology defines it.

leaving_quietly

I have thought about that in recent times, which is why it's so silly that they DON'T know who the F&DS are. They've got numbers on EVERYTHING and EVERYONE, EXCEPT the F&DS. One would think the F&DS would have to register in some way. After all, the Bible DOES number the 144,000.

EndofMysteries

That's a good point. Another is it says out of all nations, tribes, tongues, etc. Since several countries JW's are non existent, these would have be to truly hearted ones who live the life and show the command to be written in their hearts without knowing it. aka good people who would serve or are as best as they know not loosing out because of a technicality of being born in the wrong place.

blondie

TD, if I remember by the time I get home I'll find that QFR that discussed this point, all other sheep such as Abraham or Moses are not part of the great crowd because they died before Armageddon per the WTS. jws today have the potential of being part of the great crowd if they live through Armageddon per the WTS. It was quite a discussion among jws during the time that QFR came out. The WTS was trying to put out that fire with that QFR.

TD

TD, if I remember by the time I get home I'll find that QFR that discussed this point, all other sheep such as Abraham or Moses are not part of the great crowd because they died before Armageddon per the WTS. jws today have the potential of being part of the great crowd if they live through Armageddon per the WTS. It was quite a discussion among jws during the time that QFR came out. The WTS was trying to put out that fire with that QFR.

I think I know which article you have in mind, Blondie. My wife and I had a mild spat over this a few years ago. It was a "Questions From Readers" in the April 15th 1995 issue. (I could be wrong on this though....)

I think the WTS is deliberately obfuscating between "Other Sheep" in the pre-Christian and Christian eras. It's very cleverly written.

However in JW theology, there's a big difference between Christians and those like Moses and Abraham who died prior to Christ. (Faithful) Christians experience salvation. And there are only two forms that salvation can take in JW theology. There is no third option or group.

We both know that "Prospective" members of the Great Crowd sometimes die premature deaths and are relegated to simply "Other Sheep." But that doesn't change the fact that their hope was always to survive Armageddon.

The day they admit that some non-anointed Christians have lived their lives without ever having the hope and prospect of surviving Armageddon will be a theological disaster.

WT declares JWs are not "Great Crowd"

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