Divine name debate - Greg Stafford v Paul Lundquist etc

by yadda yadda 2 32 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    Can anyone answer this question: Is the divine name in shortened form in the book of Revelation? YES or NO?

    Allelouia is a fixed expression loaned into Greek from Hebrew as an expression of praise (it is found elsewhere such as 3 Maccabees 7:13, Greek Life of Adam and Eve 43:4, Odes of Solomon 11:24). It had a "shortened form" just the same way as Ieremias "Jeremiah" has a theophoric element. As a loanword, its semantic construction as a phrase may not have been understood by those who didn't speak Hebrew. It is clearly distinct from a claimed general use of the tetragrammaton in other domains.

    I think it says a lot about people who wish to discredit the NWT for the use of the divine name. Your issue is no longer with the WTS, but with the Bible writers.

    Why? Allelouia is contained universally in the source texts. That is different from the places in the NT where the NWT replaces kurios with "Jehovah".

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Phizzy you are right that Trobisch sees the NT in its current form as the result of a significant second century redaction (involving the selection of the texts, additional explanatory notes, including John 21, and standardisation of titles and formatting, most significantly in relation to the replacement of the divine name with nomina sacra) but he does not dispute that the individual writings go back further.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    An interesting point that is not made often enough when this debate arises is that the extant MSS do not contain either what JWs or mainstream scholars believe was in the original NT documents. Jehovah's Witnesses believe the NT originally used a form of the divine name and most mainstream scholars believe it used theos (God) and kurios (Lord) but actually the MSS that have survived use neither! They use nomina sacra, contracted forms of theos and kurios, to highlight their sacred meaning. So it is not simply the case that mainstream scholars follow the extant MSS whereas JWs reject them. The truth is that neither JWs nor mainstream scholars believe that the NT MSS that have survived treat divine names in the same way as the original documents, they merely differ on what original forms the nomina sacra later replaced.

  • yadda yadda 2
    yadda yadda 2

    Slimboyfat, Are you saying that there is extant MSS of the NT that uses nomina sacra variants of theos and kurios in such a way that the reader can distinguish between the Father and Jesus? If so, that is news to me. Can you direct us to any sources for this?

    Regards

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    No I am not saying that. I am saying that JWs believe the original NT used the divine name and that mainstream scholarship believes the original NT used theos and kurios in full, whereas in fact the extant NT MSS use neither but instead use nomina sacra notation. So whatever the original NT documents originally used it was not the same as in the extant MSS.

  • yadda yadda 2
    yadda yadda 2

    So then what is the hard 'evidence' to support Trobisch, Howard, Stafford's theory that the divine name appeared in the original NT writings?

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    As I am sure you know, the evidence primarily is the copies of the Septuagint from the period before the earliest extant NT MSS that show the divine name was used in sacred texts of the period. Plus the fact that many passages don't make as much sense with the divine name replaced by kurios, such as where it says "the Lord said to my Lord". Plus the unusually high number of variants in passages where the divine name once stood and scribes replaced it variously with theos or kurios. Plus the indications within the NT texts that the divine name still held religious significance, which is rather odd if the texts never actually used the name.

  • yadda yadda 2
    yadda yadda 2

    JW's are still left with the problem of why God would let his name be removed, and why he didn't at least ensure any actual MSS evidence exists to absolutely prove it was removed. And why is Jesus never once recorded in the gospels as addressing Jehovah by anything other than 'Father' or 'God', never by the divine name or anything similar. This is a knockdown argument against the JW's position as I see it.

    Further, while you are right that without the divine name or variants that would enable a clear distinction between the Father and the Son many passages in the NT just don't make sense or are ambiguous, George Howard notes that replacing the name with Kurios likely contributed to the development of the Trinity, since the identity of Jehovah and Jesus became indistinguishable in many passages. Why would God, if he is so completely concerned about "having a people for his (literal) name" and exclusively receiving all religious devotion, let this happen? Why would he let the Bible get corrupted like this in such a way that it may have played a major part in the development of the allegedly blasphemous Trinity? And why would he inspire the Apostle Paul to clearly directly apply to Jesus some OT scriptures that spoke about Jehovah? This suggests Paul himself has planted the seeds for the ontological confusion about the identity of God!

    I don't believe Stafford and the Watchtower et al have addressed those objections, have they? If they have, I would really like to see their refutations of those points.

    Although I do not agree with Lundquists trinitarian conclusions about all this, it seems to me the only sensible explanation, call it a compromise if you like, is what Ray Franz suggests in In Search of Christian Freedom, ie, that Jehovah deliberately inspired the NT writers to use Lord instead of the tetragram (or he allowed it to disappear from all trace in the NT) because Jehovah himself viewed the tetragram as his old covenant name, applicable to the Jewish people only, and that upon the creation of the new covenant and opening of salvation to the gentiles, God deliberately wanted to be known by the title Father (as Jesus predominantly called Jehovah) rather than by the tetragram and he purposefully wanted the emphasis to shift to his Son. It seems that Jesus effectively fulfilled the tetragrammaton, since Jesus became the Yes and Amen to all prophecy. Or in other words, Jehovah gave his name to Jesus.

    What this suggests to me is that the NWT translation committee had correct motives in inserting (we cannot say 'restoring' with full confidence) the divine name in the NT as a way of better distinguishing between the Father and the Son, thus helping purify the muddied waters which have contributed to trinitarian confusion about the ontological identity of Jehovah and Jesus (or even worse, modalism); but the Watchtower went too far by insisting that the divine name is an identification of the true religion, and by inserting the name in some placeswhere the context clearly suggests the Lord is in fact Jesus. Conversely, trinitarians in the early history of the church went too far by conflating the Lord Jesus with the Lord God in identity. Ray Franz's explanation is a stroke of genius I feel.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat
    ...why God would let his name be removed...

    That's their problem, I don't believe in God. I view it as an interesting historical question not a matter of faith.

  • yadda yadda 2
    yadda yadda 2

    Sorry Slimboy, I edited my last post after you posted your last reply.

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