Jesus second coming in the first century (page 3)

Jr

I'm new here. I didn't realize it was for this purpose. If it's okay with my associates, we'll copy and paste and continue there. Thanks.

Jr

logical

Jr - Im sure Simon (the moderator) will read this and move it for us.

Simon - can you move this to the Bible Research please?

Thanks

>>> http://www.geocities.com/logical_7/index.html

Jr,
I didn't mean to imply that you did anything wrong. You didn't. No one seems to mind talking about anything anywhere. Simon is very tolerant.
I just think it would be easier for those of us who want to follow the discussion if we go over there.
Thanks.

bjc2012

Trevor,

Aren't you confusing Jesus with Jehovah. Jehovah has been ruling over mankind since creation, not Jesus.

As for Jesus, Philipians 2:9 says, "For this very reason (reason given in verses 5-8) also God exalted him to a superior position..." Now if he were already exalted then this statement has no meaning.

1 Corinthians 15:24,25 says that God "subjected all things under his feet." After he ascended to heaven, he said as recorded at Matthew 28:18, "All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth."

Rulership was not his right. He had to prove his obedience to his God and creator just as we do. Hebrews 5:8,9 says: "Although he was a Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered; and after he had been made perfect he became responsibile for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him."

He became king by being appointed such by Jehovah. He did not have this position previously.

bjc

trevor

Hello Bjc2012,

I appreciate your taking time to reply to me.

You confidently state that Jehovah God has been ruling over mankind since creation. You are sure of this because you read it in a book - the bible. Have you taken a good look around the world and found any evidence that a perfect God is exercising rulership over this world? I do not believe that the almighty creator, whether he is referred to as Christ or Jehovah, needs to prove himself to man or that he desires to be king over this tiny planet. This is the concept of men.

I realize you are sincere and I have no desire to argue with you or change you. You may have concluded from some of my flippant postings that I not up to serious debate. In fact I spent 30 years as a Jehovah's Witness many as a pioneer and public speaker. I know every translation of the Bible insideout.

I avoid long Biblical quotes because I do not believe that God has expressed himself through the Bible, it is man's attempt to express himself to God. Kings, sons, sacrifice and reward -these are man's concepts. If women wrote the bible we would have a totally different explanation. Yes there is some truth in the Bible but it is not the whole answer.

Life is a divine story it is God's biography, we are the pages and paragraphs. Truth exists in the reality of existence. All the answers are there they are living answers. Books are dead things. God expresses himself without words - he demonstrates his awesome power every day, on this planet and throughout the universe. This planet is one tiny pinprick in the vastness of millions of galaxies. We are told that there are 10 galaxies for every person on earth. The light from some of them has been travelling for billions of years. Would the creator of all this concern himself with whether he or his son became king of this tiny planet in 1914,1918 or is still waiting?

I have moved far beyond the Bible, the things written. The men that wrote it warned us not to, well they would wouldn't they. I can imagine your wondering why I bother to come on this forum - given my views. Well I have only been on for this month and it is probably time to consider whether there is any point in continuing. I shall have to see. Thanks for your time.

All the best
trevor

mommy

Trevor,
WOW! Thank you for your insight in your beliefs!Keep it coming:)
wendy

eyes_opened

Trevor! You have voiced exactly the way I feel. You have put very eloquently into words, what I feel in my heart to be true. You are a kindred spirit to be sure.

eyes

larc

Trevor,

Good words Trevor, and in agreement with my thoughts (that's why I know they are good words!) :):):). Thank you for your support on the "will God pick another org." thread. This was after my dogged attempt to get some straight answers from MDS and his desciples.

If you want to see my philosophy, it is under the thread abut whether us X's are still Christians. It's pretty long and I did't want to rewrite it here. Anyway, Trevor, I would be intersested in your thoughts on my thoughts.

Over the years, I have had inense periods of intense involvement with things like this forum folowed by long periods of noninvolvement. About ten years ago I was going to write a book entitled, "The Psychology of Jehovah's Witnesses". I wrote about 150 pages of draft material, but did not have the emotional stamina to finish it. It would have required more reading of Watchtower lierature than the most zealous members and frankly, I just didn't want to do that. I still find it a handy reference and have been able to draw upon it for comments here on occasion.

Trevor, as Bartles and James used to say, "and thank you for your support."

trevor

Hello Larc,

Thanks for your comments and support - also Wendy and eyes open.

You asked me to look at your posting on 'are you ex-Jehovah's Witnesses Christian?' It was very good and I was surprised at the amount of support that followed. I agree with your thinking on many things including the flood. Noah would have had to take millions of creatures into the ark. Most fish live in either fresh or salt water. If the whole world was flooded then the mixed water would kill most kinds of fish. Like a lot of the Bible, it doesn't add up.

You mentioned evolution. The type of evolution portrayed by the Watchtower is a godless unintelligent theory. However the idea of a living God that permeates every living thing and intelligently works within the limits of each creature's habitat, over thousands of years, to develop and improve each creature, is a whole different concept. What do people think the life in us is? It is the creator's intelligent force which belongs to him. It never rests, loses patience, or gives up. It is fully invested in us and all living things. As has been said many times - if you want to see God just walk around a garden.

I believe that man has created a god in his own image. A god that needs to rest after working, is supposed to have a temper, feel regret, be vain, demanding and ready to kill any who resist. Having painted him as a jealous vengeful god, we are then told he needs a throne to sit on, he needs the earth as a footstool. He has hands, eyes and is even given internal organs 'Oh the writhing of my bowels and the throbbing of my heart! I cannot keep silence.'(Jeremiah 4:19) Then he has a son who wants to prove himself, so he can be king and sit on this imaginary throne. He adopts a nation of people, calls them his wife and possession to time indefinite and then arranges for them to be sold into slavery, so that he can rescue them and claim to be their redeemer. How very crooked and dishonest. When they don't show enough appreciation he has them smashed, torn up, crushed and destroyed.

I believe it is an insult to the creator of this beautiful universe to ascribe to him the thoughts of ambitious and cruel men. Many of the horrific biblical texts, such as Jeremiah, reflect the way that man has turned this awe-inspiring planet into a battlefield which shows no respect for human life. God has played no part in these atrocities. He is not a monster who solves problems with genocide. Men in power resort to the destruction of life - the creator creates.

As you said in your posting Lark, religion has used fear to control people for thousands of years. The Judeo-Christian concept is based on fear, bloodshed and revenge culminating in the holocaust of Armageddon. Until we can free our minds of such fear we will never come to know the purity of the creator's love and our real place in his canvass of creation.

We are warned not to have an open mind in case spurious and evil thoughts enter. If these same people understood the power of the living God, they would realize that through the silence of quiet meditation, opening our mind is the first step to God entering our heart. The creator is not separated from us, he permeates every living thing and personally offers us total understanding of him and joy in the knowing of him and his ongoing creative work. Any that are afraid of him have come to know a false god invented by man for his own political ends.

There are some some very worthy and spiritual texts in the Bible written by men of vision but that doesn't mean that all the writers have accurately described God.
I realize that many people on this site believe that my view of the Bible is blasphemous and the work of the Devil. I would ask you to read though the book of Jeremiah, for example, and ask if you want to be associated with the god portrayed there. Is he pleased to be accused of the bloodshed carried out by man in his sacred name?

I am speaking up for the God of love that I am coming to know.

To those of you that have bothered to read this far - thank you. If you are one of Jehovah's Witnesses or an ex-Jehovah's Witness and I have in any way offended you, I would ask you analyse that emotion and ask why? Never stop asking why?

trevor

Edited by - trevor on 30 January 2001 12:22:24

Edited by - trevor on 30 January 2001 12:48:35

amicus

Trevor,
Offended?
Far from it, if you were my neighbor I would invite you out for a drink, or a cup of tea to discuss in more depth this wonderful creation that we are privileged to experience.
When I was a child I spent every possible moment observing nature at work. I still enjoy this as an adult but have also come to enjoy talking to others about this intricate, amazing, and sometimes unfathomable universe.

Jesus second coming in the first century

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