Atheist Miracles
by Perry 130 Replies latest jw friends
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OnTheWayOut
It is much easier for Perry to believe he understands who he is and that he has a purpose, to feel stable because his core belief system is stable. For liberals and progressives this is not really possible because our core beliefs are less rigid and more willing to adapt as new information and understanding presents itself. Which means that we are reshaping our understanding of who we are and how we relate to society, even if in small ways.The protective walls around Perry's core beliefs are tall and rigid. They are his identity. He believes that salvation is dependent upon being correct on issues of faith. When confronted on a particular belief, he is not only confronted on an idea held to rigidly but he is feeling an attack on the very core of who he understands himself to be. Our questioning him causes him to be jolted about his beliefs just as questioning a Jehovah's Witness does. (I know, I know- I had to go there. Because, Perry, you may have left the dangerous mind-control cult but your thinking process is the same as it ever was.) -
Caedes
I will disagree with the professor because there is no struggle between science and the supernatural. The simple fact is that science cannot deal with the supernatural since by definition the supernatural is things outside of nature for which we have no empirical evidence. Science only deals in things we have empirical evidence for or things for which we think empirical evidence can be found.
So there is no struggle against the supernatural, science does not compel scientists to materialism simply because the the material world is the only thing we can study empirically. You can't say that we are forced to material explanations since there are no other explanations that provide us with empirical evidence. I note that no example is given of case where a "non- material" explanation is in any way useful or explanatory let alone more useful or explanatory than a empirical materialist answer.
It is not that science cannot allow a divine foot in the door, it is that we require a divine footprint we can measure, and as ever anything supernatural evades any hint of measurability.
The counter-intuitiveness of the material world (I would also argue that is an indication of our own lack of understanding rather than anything 'wrong' with science) is irrelevant to the question of any supposed conflict between science and the supernatural.
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Village Idiot
What Perry seems to ignore, as a young Earth creationist (?), is that there are religious people who combine the supernatural with straight up evolution. The Jesuit philosopher Teilhard de Chardin was one of them (Yes, I know Perry, he's going to hell for his heresy). -
JamesThomas
It is much easier for Perry to believe he understands who he is and that he has a purpose, to feel stable because his core belief system is stable. For liberals and progressives this is not really possible because our core beliefs are less rigid and more willing to adapt as new information and understanding presents itself. Which means that we are reshaping our understanding of who we are and how we relate to society, even if in small ways.The protective walls around Perry's core beliefs are tall and rigid. They are his identity. He believes that salvation is dependent upon being correct on issues of faith. When confronted on a particular belief, he is not only confronted on an idea held to rigidly but he is feeling an attack on the very core of who he understands himself to be. Our questioning him causes him to be jolted about his beliefs just as questioning a Jehovah's Witness does. (I know, I know- I had to go there. Because, Perry, you may have left the dangerous mind-control cult but your thinking process is the same as it ever was.)OTWO, this was well said IMHO.Would you not agree that like Perry, all of us are continuously weaving concepts and beliefs into our identity right this moment?Can we clearly see how we allow our minds to create a seemingly “real” identity out of abstract thoughts, concepts, beliefs and occurrences? And if so, what sees this? What must remain outside the story to see the story? What are we really?
Just asking.
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OnTheWayOut
OTWO, this was well said IMHO.
Even though I am not one of his fellow Christians, I love Perry and want to help him wake up.Would you not agree that like Perry, all of us are continuously weaving concepts and beliefs into our identity right this moment?
Sure. But I hoped I covered the thought that many of us strive to be open and flexible as to our identity being related to our beliefs.Can we clearly see how we allow our minds to create a seemingly “real” identity out of abstract thoughts, concepts, beliefs and occurrences? And if so, what sees this? What must remain outside the story to see the story? What are we really?
That's for each one to answer. I think therefore I am. Am I a bag of liquid and solids- yes. But who I am is tied to those abstract thoughts.
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JamesThomas
That's for each one to answer. I think therefore I am. Am I a bag of liquid and solids- yes. But who I am is tied to those abstract thoughts.
Originally you mentioned how Perry was constructing his identity around his rigid beliefs (abstract thoughts), and that you, on the other hand, are somehow too progressively open and adaptable to be fooled by such.
Then you tell me: ... "I think therefore I am. Am I a bag of liquid and solids- yes. But who I am is tied to those abstract thoughts"
So what is the fucking difference between you two???
You both identify with thoughts, and seem to have no clue or awareness of anything more or other.
Yet, there is that in you which must, and does, silently observe all thoughts, beliefs, emotions and occurrences; which is far closer and more intimate than all of them. Do you see???
You see thoughts and feelings, just like a leaf in your hand or any other phenomena. Can you see that?
I'm just asking: Can you see that you see? And if you can see all thoughts, feelings and other phenomena, then what are you? You are not the leaf or the thoughts or the emotions that you see; so what are you?
You are not what the mind says or believes. You are nothing that can be observed. Who are you; really?
I'm just asking.
Note: I mean no personal offense. Just feel that the questions are super important and can be life changing.
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OnTheWayOut
I have no idea what you are saying, and I explained the difference. The likes of Perry are stuck in a similar situation to those of our former past- rigid thinking of how they must be correct and that is some path to salvation. Many who have escaped that thinking are willing to learn and, just as they had to adjust to Watchtower not having the truth, they are adapting as they discover more along their journey.
If you want to take this to some other level of debate about "what's the difference" and I don't know where you are going or what level we are talking about, I can't contribute to your lines here.
All I can say is that Perry wants to not "continuously weave concepts and beliefs into [his] identity" but wants to only find things that agree with his rigid concepts and beliefs that he has already woven. And I hope that there is still a Perry that wants us to break those rigid concepts.
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Village Idiot
OnTheWayOut,
"All I can say is that Perry wants to not "continuously weave concepts and beliefs into [his] identity" but wants to only find things that agree with his rigid concepts and beliefs that he has already woven."
That is known as confirmation bias.
Perry actually strengthens his beliefs by coming here and watch us try to reason with him. He is a psychic vampire who's feeding off on our energy when we try to explain things to him. The more we explain the more it strengthens his delusions.
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Caedes
I love the fact that as soon as people start poking holes in Perry's arguments he runs for the hills only to return a month later with exactly the same post hoping people have short memories. Perry you are such a silly bird.