"My sheep hear my voice."

by tec 58 Replies latest jw friends

palmtree67

Sometimes He speaks to me in words. Perhaps a question designed to make me see think about and see the answer; or an answer to something I have asked. I do not hear audible words in my ears or outside my body, or anything like that. I hear Him within me: a quiet and calm inner voice. In spirit.
Sometimes the Spirit of Truth speaks to me in 'reminders'; like showing me something. A scripture recalled; a previous conversation; an example from a life lesson; something I might have seen or heard from science; an image in my mind. (I tend to be a hands on learner; i often need to see the application to understand something). So most of these are things that I have seen or heard, but have not applied or understood. Some of you will dismiss this as my working sub-conscious alone, and again this is fine. I do not seek approval or agreement.
Sometimes the Spirit leads me to understand something. ("the Spirit of truth will lead you into all things") Things I would not have known or seen on my own. Sometimes He grants me understanding; "
Sometimes when the Spirit speaks to me it is a... knowing. This is more than a feeling; deeper than a feeling. It is as though my blood sings; or I can feel the truth... in my bones. And sometimes it is a recognizing. Of truth; of Him, my Lord. The spirit calling to the spirit. Some of you will dismiss these as mere feeling, and once again... no problemo.
I just dont' understand how this is different from what I experience in my life. Or others' experiences.
I just don't attirbute it to Jesus.
And the "attributing it to Jesus" part is what bothers me. I freely admit I am imperfect - my thoughts, ideas, opinions, conclusions.....could all be WAY OFF. So I am always trying to make SURE of what I know. I seek ways to confirm my bleiefs.
With you, your inner voice IS YOUR ONLY CONFIRMATION. As long as your inner voice tells you that you are right, that's good enough for you! Dont' even deny it - I've seen it in 2 separate cases now.
That's the part of your "voice" or "knowing" or "understanding" or "reminders" that bothers me.....somehow YOU are never wrong. While the rest of teh world struggles with doing the right thing, not just for ourselves, but for others, as well....somehow you and the believers are never wrong in your thoughts, ideas and opinions.
I'm not saying you are a bad person. I think you are a GOOD person. But is your voice, knowing, unsderstanding, reminders always right?
I don't believe they are any more right than any other person who is trying to be a good person.
And there are MANY people trying to be good, Tec. Not just you, who is very articulate and charismatic.
Palm
NewChapter

I just dont' understand how this is different from what I experience in my life. Or others' experiences.
It's not. I had the same experiences as a believer, no matter what I believed (I didn't call it a voice, but it matches the description of what is happening with Tec), I had the 'knowing' the 'reminders' all that. It could get quite loud. Interestingly, it always agreed with me, even though my beliefs changed radically over the years, it was always right on track with me. As far as it telling me at times things I may not have liked, that's not really proof either, because I don't necessarily have to like something to believe it, and so it always agreed with me.
Now I am not a believer----I have the exact same experiences. And my inner voice still conforms to my worldview. I just never did, nor do I now, feel the need to discuss the specifics of this experience with other people. It was for me, and I always knew that. Even when I thought it was God or Jesus or whoever, I knew that it was so specific as to only be helpful to me. I feel very suspicious of a person who promotes the messages of such inner voices---it removes the need for reasoning and support---I would have never done that. I felt it gave me deeper understandings, which maybe prepared me for discussions, but I knew that claiming that inner voice was not the thing to do. Rather, I took the connections I had made in this way, and used THOSE to talk to others.
I find this need to discuss this inner process as though it is proof of something to be quite fascinating. Since we all do it, why is it certain believers that feel the need to broadcast it? I don't know. Still, interesting to watch.
palmtree67

Tec:
In fact I urge you to NOT take my word, but to test everything against the one who IS the Truth: Christ.
Yet, when you and Shelby cite him as your authority: "Jesus spoke to me and I am required to share......" You are NOT urging people to NOT take your word, when you cite him as your authority.
What do you think those who DON'T hear a voice are supposed to think? For those ones who still believe in God but dont' hear a "voice", of course they are going to follow you (and Shelby).
This is NChappy's point - you are responsible for those who follow you. Because you claim Jesus Christ as your authority. So in my opinion:
You better be DAMN sure you are correct before you "share" your "voices". And you better be DAMN sure that those you are leading are not mentally ill.
I just don't see how all that is possible over the internet.
I leave you to your own conscience now. Hopefully. And not just a "voice" or "intuition".
NewChapter

And you better be DAMN sure that those you are leading are not mentally ill.
And not just mentally ill, but not overly vulnerable either. I see this a lot here--there is no place more vulnerable than between decision. I've noticed, on this site, that when someone comes out and says they think they may be an atheist, we atheists answer with encouragement to read, to research, to think, to consider views. I can prove this by pulling up some threads. We don't jump on and say "YEAH! one for our team".
We don't get that from believers. We get proselytizing and confirmation, but not encouragement to open the mind and investigate. To question. To consider the alternatives.
It's this vulnerability that led me to include a spiritual corner on my secular forum. I don't want a team member, but want people to think and reach conclusions. To hear other viewpoints. I will make my case, but I expect that person to look into other possiblities too. But I'll continue to challenge them. Telling this person in this state that you hear an authoritarian voice is really unfair. How can they check it out? They can't. They can only be convinced to try it themselves, and since we ALL have this voice, they try to convince them that THAT is the voice of the lord, and therefore proof. I have found it interesting to watch as others hear suggestions, and suddenly their voices are hearing the same thing.
I just find this practice so distasteful. It feels dishonest, and not playing fairly. It puts the person in the corner and requires them to actually adopt a faith in order to investigate the voice. By that time, they've already decided, and are running on confirmation bias. Faith first---answers later. Turn off the thinking and don't expect the answers until you've already made the decision. Very manipulative.
EndofMysteries

palmtree67 - Let me tell you an experience I had. I fully believe I am being lead by the spirit, the spirit of truth is revealing things to me.
When I first started to wake up, I was reading scriptures that seemed to show bad things were going on in the organization. We were always told we were modern day Israel. I read all these scriptures about the last days and how the shepherds were leading God's people astray, etc.
I said a prayer, I wasn't sure if this was my imagination or if I was being directed. If it was true, if I could have a sure sign, if the organization is really bad, something to show me. Within 30 seconds I somehow ended up on Amos 5:4-5. Saying to say away from Bethel, it's become uncanny. Later in the chapter it spoke of justice being turned into wormwood, and even further "woe to those craving the day of Jehovah".
Was it coincidence we call our headquarters Bethel, and we DO crave the day of Jehovah? Again when this all happened I was unaware of anything bad, I knew things in the past had mistakes but I thought everything was being done exactly as the bible commanded.
I then read scriptures showing how the spirit would instruct, and even one God saying I will reveal or show things you have no heard before from any person nor read, and when it turns to be true you'll know it was from me.
Now 99% of the time, my entire experience, I learn things, but never get answers on the spot. It was about 5 years ago the part about Bethel being uncanny. But I saw in the scriptures the justice being turned to wormwood, etc, also how shepherbs abuse the sheep, etc. So I never found evidence of anything uncanny about Bethel, but everything else I did see. I knew also that those scriptures weren't intended only for what I got from reading them.
Anyway though my feeling was there was a truth to the uncanny but never proven. 5 years later.....I find proof they are involved in spirtism, communication with the dead, promoting demon inspired literature, even had a brother who said he was demon possessed for several months who wrote in the finished mystery book. Is that not uncanny?
The things I was lead to learn, I had no prior evidence to back up. Getting the spirit of truth and being lead by it, you'll learn things or be lead in a direction, and when it's always turning out to be true, even if a couple years later or it takes awhile to be fully revealed.
But I am going to say 99% of the time don't get on the spot stuff, atleast for me. My faith is a lot stronger now and maybe my experiences will change more. But it's not mislead me. It's very hard to start and keep at it, it's not a on the spot thing, you are really being tested along the way.
Hopefully this may help those trying or starting or experiencing this already.
EndofMysteries

Nobody should be leading anyone. EVERYBODY can get holy spirit. If you are going to look for somebody to explain everything and or find somebody who is trust worthy, etc, and just listen to them, you probably won't make it.
When things get bad and they are nowhere to be found, what are you going to do??????
If you start getting the spirit, you will know if what they say is true or not. If they guide you how to start that, then eventually you just share things.
Anytime one will be the 'leader', there are NO leaders but Christ. Those who are on the right path can help jumpstart you, but you need to eventually be able to eat food on your own, eat whole foot. Not be milk drinkers, meaning having it hand fed to you.
NewChapter

I don't think there is anything uncanny about any of it. I didn't know anything bad about the org either when I came to the conclusion that they were wrong. There were many signs that I was reaching that conclusion over some years, but I didn't recognize those signs for what they were. They actually never gave me any reason to question, yet I was still questioning without even realizing it. Then in a moment, I just knew. I could attribute that to a voice, or spirit, or whatever else---except I concluded that there was no god. That's all. I had nothing against the WT, but I had pretty much the same experience as you had---the 'clues' if you will, the random thought, my brain working out details without me consciously thinking about it. The feeling of absolute joy I had when I put it all together----your personal experience is not proof. We are emotional beings, and we experience similar emotions, but they are brought on by different things.
And I'd like to point out that your insistence that others can't follow humans, but must follow spirit, you are asking that they follow your interpretation of the matter without offering them anything to investigate first. To do it your way, they must first take your word for your experience, accept your understanding of that experience, and then accept a certain measure of faith before having their own experience---and not until that happens will they have their answers. So FAITH first---but faith IS a decision that must be made without proof, because the proof is not offered until after the faith is displayed.
What else do you got? What can you give to Palm to investigate herself, before requiring the leap of faith? Anything less is asking her to follow you.
palmtree67

EOM,
You can follow Tec and Shelby if you like. I've seen where their "voices" have been wrong.
I have no issue with people being wrong. It's how they handle it when they are wrong.
They are very quick to "share" publicly when they think they are right. But when it turns out they are wrong....they shuffle it under the rug.
They will start thread after thread of "Jesus told me this!" but not one thread when they are wrong.
That speaks volumes to me.
EndofMysteries

I am not only saying what the scriptures say. Even if the scriptures were written of man, in the new testament, what Paul said, what jesus said, "the spirit of truth will teach you", praying to the father for holy spirit and he will give it, Paul saying you don't need any human to teach you.
I've listed in other threads many of the scriptures. I'm pointing out that religion as is being taught today is NOT what the bible says. No where in the bible will you see it saying that you must find a man or religion, that you must be taught everything. You won't find it because it's not taught in the bible.
You can be taught the basics and everything, but each person has the ability to get the holy spirit. I'm saying it to help protect them getting in a trap. If they are being taught anything or feel any have the truth, if they are presenting themselves as ones to go to for life time answers and guidance, they are not true.
EndofMysteries

palmtree - I won't follow anyone, all I've learned has not been from anybody. I haven't checked all their things but I'll be able to tell if it's true or not. scriptually it's possible for people to have the things listed as the gifts of the spirit. I'm actually now going ot start checking things. But if I disagree I won't say it. I'm just going to check things now. As of now I do not agree or disagree with Tec, I've only been saying it's possible by how she described it and comparing to gifts of the holy spirit. But one who isn't getting it would have a much harder time to discern if true or not. If it was like the old christian times, there would group of many who were getting it and it would be clear very fast if it was true or not. It would agree with all or it wouldn't.

"My sheep hear my voice."

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