Jesus=The archangel Michael?

WatchTowerofBabel

Obviously not. (The first chapter of Hebrews seems quite explicit on the issue)

But since scriptural texts don't seem quite enough for my Jdub kinfolks (wtf?), I tried to find out where this poppycock idea first popped up.

The best I could do was find out that Ellen G White tripped out one day and had a vision which included the detail. I think Jdubs said it wasn't true for a while - and then with a burst of "newlight" having the startling brightness of a lit fart - did a turn around and decided they agreed.

I can't find out if she was the first person to ever say that JC was MtheAA or if she just pilfered the idea from someone else like Russel did with most of his. I would hate to make a case to my loved ones only to have them correct me... I'm a humble enough person, I don't mind correction, but there is just something about the repressed joy you see on a JW's face when they are correcting ANYTHING you've said, that is almost orgasmic.

Basically, I'm posting here to grovel and snivvle at you guys in the hopes that some kind soul (snivvle), with a HUGE and brilliant mind (grovel), knows when the teaching popped up for the first time? Also - I got the impression that she "spoke with angels" and whatnot - If she was the first to come up with the teaching, and did so as a result of having a chat with a spirit... That'd be nice.

Anyway, any information on the subject would be brilliant - I'll say thanks in advance because I know you guys won't let me down.

(My knees are starting to hurt)

Kisskiss.

cofty

Welcome WTofB.

Sorry I don't know the history of that particular gem of WT wisdom but I'm sure somebody will be along to help soon.

Ding

I don't know where it originated either, but there are several older threads on JWN about the Jesus = Michael topic.

blondie

http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/revelation-daniel-prophetic-interpretation.php

Michael the Archangel

Michael the Archangel is described in Daniel 10:13 as "Mi´cha·el, one of the foremost princes" and at Revelation 12:7 it says " Mi´cha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled." In the fifty years between 1880 and 1930 there were five changes as to who Michael was.

1. An Angel that worships Jesus

"Hence it is said, "Let all the angels of God worship him;" [that must include Michael, the chief angel, hence Michael is not the Son of God] and the reason is, because He has "by inheritance obtained a more excellent Name than they."" Zion's Watch Tower 1879 Nov p.4

2. The Pope and Antichrist

"Michael and his angels"--the papacy and its supporters--fought against the dragon--pagan rulers, etc.,-- and the great dragon was cast out of heaven. Zion's Watch Tower 1879 December p.6

3. Michael was the pre-human Jesus Christ

"Can it be that he who was called Michael--Jehovah's chief-messenger--was none other than our Lord in his pre-human condition? we conclude that HE must have been "chief messenger." " Zion's Watch Tower 1883 June p.3

4. The Pope again

"Michael.--- "Who as God," the Pope." The Finished Mystery 1917 p.188

5. Jesus in heaven

Since the 1930's Michael is explained to be the heavenly name for Jesus.

"For many years Jehovah's Witnesses have taught that Michael is a heavenly name for the only-begotten Son of God, who was named Jesus while on earth." Watchtower 1984 December 15 p.26

http://www.neirr.org/Is%20Jesus%20Really%20Michael.htm

Sauerkraut

Thanks Blondie. Never knew they had such drastically different views of who Michael is. But why am I even surprised?

Phizzy

Welcome WToB ! It always struck me when I was in the JW's that they had got this wrong, " one of the foremost of the Princes" is hardly very high ranking, and Heaven is always portrayed in the Bible as being very status conscious.

Nowhere in the Bible does Michael really sound as though he is the Firstborn Son of God, he "disputes" with the Devil about the body of Moses, bit like tug of war between the two, again, Michael sounds a bit of a Pansy, not the sword weilding guy of Revelation.

I reckon they got it from Ellen White , but cannot offer proof I'm afraid, non of their theological ideas seem totally original, Russell was an inveterate plagiariser.

By the way, I love your phrase " "newlight" with the brightness of a lit fart", brilliant !

And you are right, get one part of what you say wrong with JW's, perhaps something as small as not using their favourite word to describe something, and they will point out your error with glee, and feel justified in rejecting the rest of what you have presnted, mind-controlled to the extent of no Critical Thinking skills, the lot of them.

slimboyfat

I just ordered this book to find out more about the subject. I may report if I find anything interesting.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/3161470540/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00

slimboyfat

An interesting verse that apparently equates Jesus to an angel, and that the Watchtower hardly every uses to make the point, is Galatians 4:14.

designs

John Calvin, who led the Reformation, was one who believed 'Michael' was a designation for Jesus along with 'Angel of the Lord'.