Jesus=The archangel Michael?

by WatchTowerofBabel 31 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Calvin was a staunch Trinitarian who in fact had Servetus killed for his deviation from Trinitarianism. So I am not sure there are many points of contact between the Christology of Calvin and JWs. Although Cavlin viewed Michael the Archangel as a title used of Christ, that in no way implied a low Christology within his scheme.

    I think a straighforward reading of Galatians 4:14 is that it equates Jesus with an angel, not as it's main point, but by the way, which is in fact all the more telling as unwitting testimony to how Paul viewed Jesus' position.

  • barry
    barry

    Ellen White came up with the idear that Jesus was Michael the angel at the time she wa an Arian. Ellen White changed her thinking about the turn of the 20th century and accepted the doctrine of the Trinity. Today Adventists beleive the doctrine of the trinity but still retain the doctrine that Jesus is Michael. Barry

  • tec
    tec

    I always thought that claiming Jesus was Michael was just a way to fight the trinity teaching. (I have no belief in either of them) But that is the way it felt to me when i was studying. If he has another identity set firmly in the minds of their(wts) followers, then any other teaching will seem ridiculous to them.

    This was the one I could never wrap my head around, though. There was just no basis for it.

    Peace

    tammy

  • kurtbethel
    kurtbethel

    That is another one of the channeled teachings. The irony is that nearly every scripture used to support this doctrine refutes it. Weak game, channeling stuff. Even as the Watchtower denounces Christians for having a trinity, they have created their own.

    Watchtower bible tract society jehovah's witnesses have their own trinity

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    This is from a paper entitled Adam In Ancient Texts and the Restoration by LDS author Matt Roper. The Mormons have always believed that Adam was Michael, also the Ancient of Days. I've edited out the Mormon stuff and left the apocraphal information in. The entire paper can be found at the above link. It's worth reading.

    ----------------------------------

    Adam In Ancient Texts

    Some recent scholarship has focused on evidence that the question of Adam’s pre-existence may have been a matter of some controversy in later Judaism. Here it is important to remember that ancient Judaism was not a monolithic religious entity, but consisted of a variety of competing and sometimes conflicting factions and groups which were often at religious and ideological odds with one another. The Talmud contains an interesting reference which states, “Our rabbi’s taught: Adam was created [last of all beings] on the eve of Sabbath. Why so? Lest the minim [i.e. heretics] should say: The Holy One, blessed be He, had a partner in His work of creation.” 8 In his seminal study, The Name of God and the Angel of the Lord, Jarl Fossum notes that this statement from the Talmud reflects earlier controversy between competing factions of Judaism over the question of the First Man (Adam) and his role in the creation. More specifically, there were those, who later Jews considered heretics (minim) who held that Adam was God’s “associate” in the creation of the world. This earlier Jewish view of Adam may be reflected in an early midrash which claims that, “God took counsel with the souls of the righteous in creating the universe.” The Jewish proponent of this belief interpreted the passage in 1 Chronicle 4:23 which speaks of King Solomon’s workers in terms of God as the king of creation, where the pre-existent righteous are said to have been present with God when he oversaw their work under his direction.

    These were the formers and those that dwelt among plantations and hedges; there they were with the King in his work” (1 Chron. iv.23). “These were the formers”: They are termed thus on account of the verse “Then Yhwh Elohim formed man (Gen. Ii.7) “And those that dwell among plantations” corresponds to “And the Lord planted a garden in the east” (Gen. ii.8). “And hedges” corresponds to “I have placed the sand for the bound of the sea” (Jer. v.22). “There they were with the King in his work”: With the supreme King of kings, the Holy One, blessed be He, sat the souls of the righteous, with whom he took counsel before creating the world. 9

    Concerning this passage Fossum states, “The midrash agrees with the rabbinic tradition that God in Gen. i.26 ‘took counsel’ with his agents. But it goes further than the expositions examined above in that it explicitly calls God’s agents ‘makers’,”formers’,with reference to Genesis ii.7.” 10 We might also note that the pre-existent righteous with whom God takes counsel are also said to have been already present when God sets the bound of the sea, an event which occurs on the second day of creation in Genesis. Another midrash states, “Before the world was created, there was none to praise God and know Him. He created the angels and the holy Hayyot, the heavens and their host, and Adam as well. They all were to praise and glorify their Creator.” 11

    This tradition of a pre-existent First man (Adam) persisted in Greco-Roman times, where some Jews and Gnostic Christians associated the “light” mentioned in Genesis 1:3 with the pre-existent first man Adam. This seems to have been based on the fact that Greek word phos in the Septuagint for Genesis could mean both “light” and “man,” (a word play that is not found, however in the Hebrew). The Gospel of the Egyptians, one of the texts discovered at Nag Hammadi Egypt speaks of “The first man…through whom and to whom everything became, (and) without whom nothing became.” 12 Fossum states, “In the so-called Nassene Homily summarized by Hyppolytus, the celestial Adamas is said to have brought the chaotic matter to rest in primordial times (see VI.viii.22). Furthermore, it is he who constantly rotates the universe in a circle (see VI.viii.34). Finally, he emits the world ocean which is surrounding the universe (see VI.viii.20).” 13

    Several so-called Jewish magical texts also portray the first man as pre-existent and as participating in the creation of the cosmos. In these texts Adam is addressed as “father of the world” a term which in Hellenistic times was synonymous with the creator of the world. He is also described as one who “filled the whole universe with air, who hung up the fire from the [heavenly] water and separated the earth from the water.” 14 In another related text, the heavenly Adam is portrayed as possessing the “the powerful name” possessed by God in the creation. 15 After surveying numerous early Jewish, Christian and Gnostic traditions about the heavenly man, Fossum concludes, “that when the rabbis had to maintain that Adam was created on the eve of the Sabbath, they were contending against a doctrine of a heavenly man who was pre-existent or had been brought into being on the first day of creation.” Although found in later Gnosticism, “this doctrine was of Jewish origin.” 16

    Recent scholarship suggests that some of these Jewish traditions about the Pre-existence of the first man may be traced to the book of Job. There, Job’s friend Eliphaz challenges the suffering man’s claims to wisdom, asking, “Are you the firstborn of the human race? Were you brought forth before the hills? Have you listened in the council of God? And do you limit wisdom to yourself? What do you know that we do not know?” (Job 15:7-9 NRSV). Eliphaz’ point is that Job cannot lay claim to such heavenly wisdom. Behind his sarcastic challenge, however, rests an understanding that the first man could indeed lay claim to such heavenly wisdom. Several elements in these verses lead to this conclusion,

    First, in contrast to the Genesis account of the creation, the first man in Job is described in the text as having been born or brought forth rather than “created” (Genesis 1:27) or “formed”(Gen 2:7). In a recent study of the first man mythology in the Book of Job Dexter Callender notes, “In these words of Eliphaz, we learn that the first human was thought to have been born before the hills. The verbal root here is hwl which means ‘to dance or writhe’. It is used in connection with birth imagery, denoting writhing in travail; and hence can render the meaning ‘to bear or bring forth.’” The meaning of the verb is clear in the parallelism here with yld as in Isaiah 51:2. In other words, “The first human is described as having come into existence through natural means, that is through birth.” 17 This usage points to an event which precedes the formation of man from the dust of the earth in Genesis 2:7.

    Second, the first man in Job 15:7 is said to be born “before the hills,” a term which is also used of the personified figure of wisdom in Proverbs, where personified wisdom is said to have been possessed by God at the beginning, “before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth” (Proverbs 8:25). In the Genesis account of the creation man’s physical body is created on the sixth day, yet the hills and mountains do not appear until the division of the waters from the dry land on the second day of creation. This suggests a pre-mortal birth and existence for the first man mentioned in Job which precedes the creation of his body on earth and its placement in the Garden of Eden in Genesis chapter 2.

    Third, Eliphaz’ question, “Have you listened in the council of God?” is informed by a context which places the first man in God’s heavenly council where he has access to heavenly wisdom. “According to Eliphaz, the wisdom of the primordial human came as a result of his presence within the council of God, and the fact that he ‘listened.’” 18 Callender observes that the use of the verbs in this passage may be, “alluding to a particular divine council [cf. Gen. 1:26] in which the plan of creation was revealed” or it may indicate continuing access, meaning “art thou wont to be a listener.” 19

    Fourth, in Job 38-41, the Lord lists various things that Job, as a mortal cannot possibly know, but which God does know by virtue of his wisdom as Creator. “Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? Or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? Or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy” (Job 38:4-7). According to Herbert May, “The motif of the First Man, created before the earth appears in Job 15:7, 8 and is also found in Job 38:4-7.... In Job 38 the theme is wisdom and knowledge which Job, in contrast with God, does not have; he was not there (as First Man was there) when God laid the foundations of the earth and the members of God’s council (the morning stars, the sons of God) rejoiced.” 20 In response to God’s question, Job, as an imperfect mortal would have to admit that he did not know, but the first man could have answered “yes,” since as one with associated with God at the creation he had access to divine wisdom about the creation of the earth. In fact, as Callender puts it, “The primal human...was present at the creation and by virtue of that fact possessed wisdom in its most intimate details. The divine speeches in [Job] chapters 38-41 make clear that the secrets of the universe lie within the primordium, the epoch of creation. As one who ‘was born then’, he knew the deepest and most esoteric of knowledge.” 21 Thus, “In the world-view of the writer of Job and his audience the first human is an exalted being.... He is numbered among the sons of God.” 22

    Foreknowledge of God and the necessity for a Savior

    Another theme found in the ancient literature on Adam is the teaching that God knew before hand that Adam would fall and in Christian literature, the idea that knowing before-hand of man’s future transgression, God would provide a Savior by which man could be saved. In a Coptic Christian work, the Discourse on the Abbaton, at the creation God sends an angel to retrieve clay from the earth to form man’s body. The earth objects, complaining of the wickedness that will be committed by man if he is created and placed upon the earth.

    If thou takest me to Him, He will mould me into a form, and I shall become a man, and a living soul. And very many sins shall come forth from my heart (or, body), and many fornications, ans slanderous abuse, and jealousy, and hatred and contention shall come forth from his hand, and many murders and sheddings of blood shall come forth from his hand…. Let me stay here and go back to the ground and be quiet.23

    In spite of the earth’s objections, the angel carries some clay to God for the formation of Adam’s body. After God creates Adam’s body, however, there is a discussion in heaven between the Father and the Son about what to do about man. According to this text

    He left him lying for forty days and forty nights without putting breath into him. And he heaved sighs over him daily saying, “If I put breath into this [man], he must suffer many pains.” And I said unto my Father, “Put breath into him; I will be an advocate for him.” And my Father said unto Me, “If I put breath into him, My Beloved Son, Thou wilt be obliged to go down into the world, and to suffer many pains for him before Thou shalt have redeemed him, and made him come back to his primal state.” And I said unto my Father, “Put breath into him; I will be his advocate, and I will go down into the world, and will fulfil thy command.”24

    It is clear from this text that God knows before-hand that man will transgress and that it is necessary to appoint an advocate for man, and that Jesus willingly offered to suffer the pains of man’s redemption, even before man was given life.

    Adam in the Garden

    Recent studies by Michael Stone, W. Lipscomb, Gary Anderson and others have focused on a set of Armenian Christian Adam and Eve texts. These texts were first published in Armenian in 1898 and only in English in the last several decades. 25 These texts discuss the events which took place in the Garden of Eden before the Fall. In one of these entitled, Adam and Eve and the Incarnation, the serpent tells Eve, “God was a man like you. When he ate of the fruit of this tree he became God of all” 26 In The History of the Creation and Transgression of Adam, the serpent states, “God was like you, because he had not eaten of that fruit, When he ate it, he attained the glory of divinity.” Speaking of devil’s words to Eve, Michael Stone, the editor and translator of the recently published Armenian and Georgian Adam and Eve texts observes, “The formulation in our text says not just that humans will become like God (gods)” but also that “God was himself originally human and became divine through eating the fruit.” 27 This variation on the serpent’s words is also found in several later medieval Jewish texts about Adam and Eve. 28 In the Transgression of Adam, after Eve partakes of the fruit, Adam asks her, “Why have you eaten the fruit?” Eve responds by saying, “The fruit is very sweet. Take and you taste, and notice the sweetness of this fruit” but Adam refuses, saying, ‘I cannot taste it.” According to this particular account Eve the begins to cry and beg Adam to eat and “do not separate me from you.” After some deliberation (three hours according to one account) Adam reasons, “It is better for me to die than to become separated and detached from this woman.” Then he partakes of the fruit as well.

    These and other extra-canonical texts indicate that after the redemption of Christ that Adam would be taken to paradise and that after the resurrection he would be restored to his former inheritance which he had lost at the Fall. The significance here is that Adam’s restoration to his pre-mortal inheritance, where according to these texts he once reigned under God as a king and at God’s specific command was even worshiped by the angels, suggests a return to a state where he could again receive such adoration, a state clearly suggestive of deification. The theme of deification in fact is explicit in the Syriac Testament of Adam. There Adam explains to his son Seth that God would eventually fulfil Adam’s desire for deification. Just before being cast out of the Garden, the Lord tells him, “Adam, Adam, do not fear. You wanted to be a god; I will make you a god; not right now, but after the space of many years.”

    For your sake I will taste death and enter into the house of the dead…. And after three days, while I am in the tomb, I will raise up the body I received from you. And I will set you at the right hand of my divinity, and I will make you a god just like you wanted.”*

    8b.Sanh. 38a.

    9 Genesis Rabba 8:7.

    10 Fossum, The Name of God and the Angel of the Lord, 210.

    11 Ginzberg, Legends of the Jews, 1:83.

    12 James M. Robinson, The Nag Hammadi Library (San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1988), 212.

    13 Fossum, The Name of God and the Angel of the Lord, 267.

    14 PGM IV, 1170-1204, in Hans Dieter Betz, The Greek Magical Papyri in Translation (Chicago and London: University of Chicago Press, *date*), 61.

    15 PGM 1:195-219, in Betz, The Greek Magical Papyri , 8.

    16 Fossum, The Name of God and the Angel of the Lord, 281.

    17 Dexter E. Callender, Adam in Myth and History: Ancient Israelite Perspectives on the Primal Human (Winona Lake, Indiana: Eisenbrauns, 2000), 141.

    18 Callendar, Adam in Myth and History, 175.

    19 Callender, Adam in Myth and History, 147. Citing Driver and Gray, A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the Book of Job, 96.

    20 Herbert G. May, “The King in the Garden of Eden.” In Israel’s Prophetic Heritage. Ed. B.W. Anderson and W. Harrelson (New York: Harper, 1962), 172-173.

    21 Callender, Adam in Myth and History, 176.

    22 Callender, Adam in Myth and History, 213.

    23Discourse on Abbaton, folio10b, in E. A. Wallis Budge, ed. And Translator, Coptic Martyrdoms etc. in the Dialect of Upper Egypt (London: Oxford University Press, 1914), 481. Here one is reminded of Enoch’s vision in the Latter-day Saints’ Book of Moses, “And it came to pass that Enoch looked upon the earth; and he heard a voice from the bowels thereof, saying: Wo, wo is me, the mother of men; I am pained, I am weary because of the wickedness of my children, When shall I rest, and be cleansed from the filthiness which is gone forth out of me? When will my Creator sanctify me, that I may rest, and righteousness for a season abide upon my face?” (Moses 7:48).

    24 Discourse on Abbaton, folios 11b-12a, in Budge, Coptic Martyrdoms, 482.

    25 W. Lowndes Lipscomb, The Armenian Apocryphal Adam Literature (University of Pennsylvania, 1990), 7.

    26 Adam and Eve and the Incarnation, 4 (M5913), in Michael Stone, Armenian Apocrypha Relating to Adam and Eve (Leiden: Brill, 1996), 25.

    27 Stone, Armenian Apocrypha Relating to Adam and Eve, 25.

    28 “He well knows that if you eat thereof your eyes will be opened, and you will know how to create the world just as He.” Chronicles of Jerahmeel, 22:3, in M. Gaster, ed., The Chronicles of Jerahmeel; or, The Hebrew Bible Historiale (New York: KTAV Publishing House, 1971), 47; “What he said, however, was that God ate of the tree and so built the world. `Therefore,’ he went on, `eat you of it and you shall create worlds.” Zohar, Genesis 36a, in Harry Sperling, ed., The Zohar (New York: Rebecca Bennet Publications, 1958), 134.

  • WatchTowerofBabel
    WatchTowerofBabel

    Cofty - Spanks for the welcome.

    Ding - I'm not quite sure why I never saw the little search bar at the top there... I waited two days to join up here and ask that question.
    I'm grateful and annoyed all at the same time! This site is a treasure trove of information.

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/scandals/80742/1/Is-Jesus-Christ-and-Michael-the-ArchAngel-one-and-the-same-person

    Blondie - Ooh, that's nice, I didn't realise they'd been quite so confused by the idea in the first place. And thanks for the link to jwfacts, every link's a bookmark these days it seems.

    Phizzy - Spanks for the welcome, I wanted to put "wet fart"... Sounds better. But I'm not too sure how well a wet fart actually lights.

    Slimboyfat - Looks like an interesting read, I may have to jingle my piggybank and see what's rolling around in it.

    Designs - I'd no idea at all that the teaching went back before E. White, I learned a bunch in the last two days... And my head hurts now.

    Barry - That is pretty much what I thought mate. I even hoped she did come up with it because she is an odd character herself - the similarities between her and Russel are amusing to say the least. Every time I come on here I learn something new.

    Tec - I agree with every single one of your syllables. Peace right back at ya.

    Kurtbethel - Good picture. One of the people I've been speaking to has been a jdub for quite a few years, but frowned when I said JC=MtheAA according to the WT and said "are you sure?". I said "are you". Silence reigned supreme.

    Coldsteel - Damn, I had no idea at all that Mormons believed that.


    With regard to the overall question of whether or not the bible identifies Jesus as Michael = I think it seems to sound as if it might be doing sometimes, but that is a shoddy basis for a teaching in my opinion. At least in the light of Hebrews chapter 1.
    I wouldn't be dogmatic about the issue given my current lack of knowledge on the subject, but it would take ALOT of explaining to get me to believe the writer of the letter of Hebrews didn't mean exactly what it sounds like he's saying.

  • mP
    mP

    Pretty obvious that MIchael is not Jesus, they have different names !. People dont ordinarily have multiple names, the more natural conclusion is the opposite that the different names are of course different identities. The jews had many unusual beliefs that most people are not aware of. Ancient peoples were like that, they invented all sorts of magical angels, devils and so on.

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    Jesus premortal name is translated "Jehovah." In the Old Testament, Jehovah is the judge of both men and nations. He is the first and the last, the beginning and the end (all titles of Christ). John also notes that "The father judgeth no man, but has committed all judgment to the Son." (John 5:22) If Jehovah is our judge, he clearly is not the Father. Since I don't have a New World Translation, how is this translated there?

    Oh, and speaking of the NWT, do the missionaries sell them? If so, how much? And who pays for their magazines and booklets? Do they foot the bill or does the FDS foot the bill for lunch?

  • yadda yadda 2
    yadda yadda 2

    We get a new thread about every week on this subject from someone just joining the forum. They need to organise the 'best of...' board better.

  • Room 215
    Room 215

    ... maybe, maybe not; who cares, reallly and what difference does it make?

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