LG,
I don't follow anyone. So you are the Christ? That belief is your "cross" to bear. You must bear it alone. Keep suffering maybe your God will hear, maybe he will help you down off that "cross".
It's between you and him.
IW
The Bible is a Deck of Cards
by IslandWoman 34 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Larsguy
Knowing how religions form and evolve, reasonable people would suspect early christian writers utilized literary license to promote their savior figure.As I've said in other threads the coincidences are numerous and specific.This evidence requires honest consideration.The proof you would have to have that these events occurred in the life of Jesus would have be very weighty.More than the need to believe.
This is an interesting topic and an interesting and true GENERAL theory, but on close examination of religious doctrine, you must also consider the COMMON SOURCE theory which would show varying but similar doctrines coming from a common source.
That would reflect upon the fact that a lot of common knowledge was present at the time immediately after the flood and those general facts became distorted into the various pagan religions. Case in point is the ancient mother goddess "Ishtar" who was used to depict the zodiac constellation "Virgo" (virgin). She is seen with a branch in her hand, that branch representing her "seed". Thus she represents the "woman and her seed" who would oppose the Messiah as mentioned in Genesis 3:15. So you have a Jewish version paralleling a pagan version but one might suppose that the concept originated first with the pagans, when it did not, it had a common source.
The same thing with other pagan doctrines regarding the Messiah. The Bible shows that Jesus is represented in the heavenly bodies as the "sun" since he's the bright morning star. Pagan custom shows the sun-god as Mithras and represents his birthdate at the winter solstice at the birth of the sun. However, the things in the heavens were represented by earthly things long before this, so the fact that the Jews and Christians would acknowledge their Messiah as the sun comes from the original reference of that fact and the pagan version simply reflects that.
Even the idea of the sacrifice of children which the pagans did was a Satanic mockery of what God had done in order to save mankind. That is, basically, in order to kill Satan and fulfill the law that says sin must be paid by death, the only way to nullify this for Adams children was to create the RANSON SACRIFICE via the RESURRECTION. That is, a new rule came into existence that said if you died a good person then you could come back to life again. But basically that would mean that God would require ALL his children to die or be tested, as if passing them through the fire. This basic concept became the corrupted pagan practice of having children pass through the fire to Molech as God was having his own children (all his servants) pass through the fire in another sense.
So on academic analysis, what we learn is a common knowledge about the conflict between Satan and the Devil and the sacrifice of the Messiah, the king, who would then save all mankind.
Now here's the issue. Basicaly, the concept of the dying-king-god ever year that brings back spring, is the same concept as Mithras killing the bull who then brings life and prosperity, and could parallel the fact that God's sacrificing of his son, Jesus Christ results in the life of dying mankind.
Now did the Christians adapt a PAGAN doctrine? or did the pagans adapt and original common belief of circumstances from the time of Noah?
So whether or not a specific doctrine in one culture resembles that in another could have more than one explanation. But particularly presuming that any Judeo-Christian concepts come out of paganism becomes somewhat presumptuous must be recognized since the Judeo doctrines go all the way back to Adam and stem therefore from Noah. In other words, the Christians and Jews did not need to borrow from the pagans when they had their own version of the original doctrine.
And what is really fun, when you really get into the Bible is recognizing that ISHTAR, the woman with teh seed, is a direct representation of Satan and his seed that would oppose Christ and his seed. So ISHTAR and Artemis and the mysteries are not simply pagan but specifically SATANIC. Thus Satan inspired these false gods based upon himself and his own nature, i.e. being beautiful, sophisticated, etc.
So two sides to every coin, I suppose, but in the case of the Jews and Christians more than likely they had the original take on some of the pagan concepts, including Jesus being the sun and being sacrificed to save the world. That's the Grail Myth from the mysteries you know: "The king is the land, the land is the king" the land dies when the king dies and when he's reborn the land flourishes again, the same old "dying king" myth, but that reflects the original concept of Jesus' death allowing for the rebirth of mankind.
L.G.
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Larsguy
Dear peacefulpete,
I'm fascinated by the pagan versus the Judeo-Christian doctrines since that is where a lot of my research began.
But here's ANOTHER ONE to add to your similaries. The ELEUSINIAN mysteries are about Persephone and her mother who fretted over her dying and wasn't content until she got her back. In the NT that fits nearly precisely the woman with the Drachma coin who loses it and then frets and frets until she finds it. Generally, the woman is considered to represent God who suffers over "lost sheep" in general. But in reality, the lost drachma coin represents the MESSIAH at the second coming since he is the "prodigal son" who was lost for a while then returned. So the stories are parallel and suggests that Satan directly or the doctrine in general about the nature of the second coming as the "lost sheep" prodigal son was known in advance.
The parallel seems just too coincidental to me. Haven't quite made up my mind whether Satan is mocking God or God is mocking Satan, but likely it's a little of both I'm afraid. God tricked Satan in the Garden of Eden, that test was really for him and not necessarily Adam and Eve and all their children. As it is, God saves the children who would have basically been saved but we gain a Satan-free world via the experience. Thus Satan would be very, very resentful of God for having tricked him with the "pentaly of sin is death" law since the resurrection law nullifies it. After all, who cares if you die now for a short while if you come back to live forever? So God just had ALL his children die and he brings back only the good ones and leaves the wicked ones dead. Literally burning children up by having them pass through the fire was Satan's way of mocking God's arrangement for the Ransom sacrifice.
So I definitely agree there are direct similarities, but who came up with what first I'm afraid will remain a matter of debate with me.
But fascinating topic, for sure! How the pagans knew the second coming Messiah would be a "lost sheep" in sheol for a while like Persephone in the "mysteries" has me wondering. Pagan doctrine does parallel Christian doctrine in many ways, amazingly!!!
Who influenced whom, is the real question. For a later debate I suppose.
Take care and have a nice day!
L.G.
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aChristian
"Larsguy" the "Messiah" has done it again. He has hijacked a thread which had nothing to do with himself and turned it into a thread all about himself. So, off we go again.
One of "Larsguy's" favorite "proof texts" that Christ would return as a sinful man, is "the second wave offering being with leaven." (Lev.23:17)
As I have said, I and others have pointed out to "Lars" many times before how the symbolism in this passage of scripture are widely understood by Christian Bible scholars. However, no matter how many times we point this out to "Lars" it seems to go in one ear and out the other and he again posts the same foolishness about how "the second wave offering with leaven" proves Jesus would return as "a sinful man." So I know this will have no impact on "Lars" since it never has had any other time he has been explained these things. But just in case anyone else here is interested I will here explain how the symbolisms contained in '"the second wave offering with leaven" are understood by nearly all Christian Bible commentators except "Lars."
To begin with, wave offerings were just that, offerings. Things which were offered up to God. Things which were sacrificed. Things which people gave up. They were not things that God sent down to man. They were things which people gave up to God. So, for "Lars" to say that the two wave offerings were meant to picture God sending mankind His Son, at the time of His first advent and at the time of His second advent, makes no sense.
What does make sense is to understand that the first wave offering without leaven was meant to picture, not Christ's coming but His going. It makes sense to understand that the first wave offering was meant to picture the sinless human life which Jesus Christ offered up to God in payment for our sins, before He ascended to heaven. Remember, Jesus Himself said that no human being had ascended into heaven prior to His own ascension to heaven. (John 3:13) Jesus was the first person to ascend to heaven. After ascending to heaven Jesus appeared before God and presented Him with the value of the sacrifice He had just made. (Heb. 9:11,12,24) Thus, Jesus' sacrificial death and subsequent ascension to heaven were well pictured by the first wave offering without leaven.
But what about the second wave offering with leaven? What did that picture? Most Christian commentators tell us that it prefigured the lives of the saints, many of whom have died martyrs deaths. That God acknowledges the sacrifices many of His servants have made is shown by the fact that their souls are shown in Revelation crying out to God from "under the altar," since their blood had been symbolically shed on that altar. (Rev. 6:9,10)
The Bible tells us that there are two resurrections yet to come. We are told that the first of those resurrections is made up of all of God's faithful servants. At that time God will acknowledge the sacrifices all of them have made to Him. So then, if the sacrifice of Christ's sinless life was pictured by the first wave offering without leaven, then it certainly makes good sense to understand that the sacrifices of the sinful lives of God's servants, who are all resurrected following Christ's own resurrection, were pictured by the second wave offering, the one with leaven.
Of course, good sense is something false Christs like "Larsguy" are always sorely lacking.
Another of Larsguy's favorite "proof texts" that Jesus would return as a sinful man is Zechariah 3 which tell s us about a time when the High Priest Joshua wore dirty robes. Larsguy says this too pictures that Jesus would return as a sinful man. It does not. The common sense understanding of this passage of scripture has also been presented to Larsguy, AKA "Crazy Larry," many times. But again, it goes in one ear and out the other.
However, in this case Larsguy is partially correct. Zech. 3 does contain strong messianic elements. However, all of Zech. 3's messianic elements pertain to Christ's first coming, not to His second. The High Priest Joshua's wearing dirty clothes pointed to the time when Jesus, in order to "justify many," would "bear the sin of many" and be "numbered with the transgressors." (Isaiah 53:11,12) This, of course, took place when Jesus Christ "bore our sins in his body on the tree." (1 Peter 2:24) As we know, very shortly thereafter Christ was "given all power in heaven and on earth" by his Father (Matt. 28:18), just as Zechariah's dirty clothes were immediately replaced with rich clothing and royal headwear. (Zech. 3:4,5)
The rest of Crazy Larry's twistings of the scriptures are so far off base they do not require comment.
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peacefulpete
Larsguy
you are scaring me.I am sure you are familiar with more than just the coinsidences(parallels)you mentioned.To imagine persian,Hittite,egyptian,and other asian religions anticipated details such as the virgin birth,the messiahs specific miracles his transfiguration,death by impalement,hundreds even thousands of years before christ, is ridiculous.Even the manger scene with adoring maji bearing gold,frankinsence and myrrh,were cut and pasted from savior legends centuries prior.Even names are often borrwed. The name Mary occurs in various forms in a half dozen mythologies as the mother of the savior.There was even a pagan savior who's name was Jesus.No,an honest evaluation requires we accept the Judeao/Christian religion ,like all religions past and present is a collection of enduring mythologies adapted to meet contemporary needs.The neat thing is that these tales have impact on lives thousands of years hence.Good mythologies die hard.