In Jehovah's Witnesses- Elders Have Rights- other JW's Don't- 10/15 WT

by flipper 60 Replies latest jw friends

  • 00DAD
    00DAD

    LostGeneration: Someone came to me with an issue, and I basically didn't say jack shit back to them after they explained their situation, as I was totally unqualified as to how to address their problem. And thousands of others [elders] sit in that exact position today. No real training, no real skills in helping people with real problems.

    That's another problem with this comparison: real doctors have years of intense training including schooling, interning, observing and testing before they are considered qualified to work with a real patient.

    Elders are janitors and window washers with a couple of hours of "training" at a seminar once every few years and their secret "Elder's Manual" and they make decisions that affect people's lives and families, sometimes permanently.

    It's a sick joke. It'd be funny if it weren't for the fact that so many people's lives are damaged as a result of this completely inept arrangement.

    Holy Spirit clearly has nothing to do with this.

    00DAD

  • panhandlegirl
    panhandlegirl

    Flipper, great analysis of the article. I also noticed how, on page 14, p. 8 they assert that "Jesus is pictured in the Bible as having 'in his right hand seven stars.' The 'stars' represent the anointed overseers and, by extension, all the overseerers in the congregations. Jesus can direct the 'stars' in his hand in any way he feels appropriate." So again it is "wait on Jehovah/Jesus." And all this is asserted without any proof. What proof is there that these "stars" represent these elders? There in no indication in Rev. that this is the case. They just say something and the sheep, r/f , are required to accept what they say. They are so arrogant and self-serving that it is sickening. Talk about total control! Don't presume to demand justice or accountably from the Elders. Just take your punishment, reproof and keep your mouth shut! Thanks for pointing out the article for us.

  • 00DAD
    00DAD

    WT: ... some individuals who engage in serious wrongdoing in the congregation have refused to appear before a committee of elders assigned to help them.

    As whacked and inappropriate as that doctors=elders analogy is, I think the real thrust of this article is twofold:

    1. Control the sheep: obey the elders no matter what they say or do. It doesn't matter if they are wrong, you still need to do what they say.
    2. If you do NOT obey the elders, then the elders can sanction you and the R&F will automatically assume you are engaged in "in serious wrongdoing"

    CONTROL, CONTROL AND MORE CONTROL!

  • wha happened?
    wha happened?

    If this were really what the arrangement was about, then Paul should have been df'd for this:

    11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party. [ a ] 13 And the rest of the Jews acted hypocritically along with him, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, “If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?”

    Paul publically corrected one from the so called GB? Apostate!

  • flipper
    flipper

    Thanks for all the great comments and observations ! I agree with some of you that said there must be quite a rebellion going on inside the Jehovah's Witness cult right now with JW's NOT attending judicial committee meetings or many of them just getting so tired of capitulating to the elders demands and are tired of playing the game being manipulated as well by control hungry WT elders.

    BENNYK- I like how you re-wrote the sentence from the WT article. Very well stated by you ! I agree that many JW's are getting tired of the star chamber kangaroo courts held in JC meetings. I mean- these meetings are SO unfair that the typical JW is NOT aware of their rights as outlined in the elders manual, like you can have an eyewitness to stand up in your behalf.

    00DAD- Exactly, it IS a cult and indeed they misapply illustrations constantly these days. I mean - the typical JW does NOT have any rights or have even any power to sway a JC meeting as the hardened rules are laid down by elders who control these meetings. And if an elder has a personal grudge against the one being judged in a JC meeting that comes into play as well in the decision making process.

    KOJACK57- I agree the WT leaders ARE getting more and more brazen , bizarre, paranoid, and insane all at the same time. Which is a bad mixture for sure !

    DATA-DOG- Very true. For the WT leaders they view Witnesses as just " put up or shut up " and don't ruin it for the rest of " obedient " Witnesses who don't make waves and follow the rules. A total lack of freedom of speech in this organization.

    MINIMUS- Exactly. Elder " doctors " are sick themselves so how in the hell can they give good advice ? That's interesting that elders park in clergy only hospital parking spaces. Yeah, I guees they would look at themselves as clergy- even though they outright DENY that the WT society has a " clergy class ". So hypocritical.

    EUSTACE- Good point that only elders are allowed to talk to DFed ones. Another perceved " right " that elders lord over rank & file Witnesses.

    DESIROUS of CHANGE- Exactly. Most JW's will let this information pass in one ear and out the other at the WT study when it's discussed as their brains are in neutral at meetings, or anywhere else for that matter.

    ZIDDINA- Exactly. The WT society doesn't want to be challenged by JW's regarding ANYTHING they allow ! Including allowing murder, rape of children, people dying from not receiving blood transfusions , shunning policy - all because 8 GB members consider themselves as the same status of God. Pretty sick and twisted thinking.

    LOST GENERATION- Thanks for the Birthday wishes ! Appreciate it. You bring up some really good points. It's always just kind of put out there by the WT society that even though elders are " imperfect " ( I hate that copout word they use ) - that elders generally are like teflon protected enforcers of WT rules and regulations. In other words DO NOT QUESTION THEM ! It sounds as if you were one of the decent elders who actually cared about publishers and a person who thought before you spoke not giving out personal opinions but wisely choosing your words. Good for you. It sounds like your experiences as an elder had a help in assisting you to exit the organization. And that's a good thing !

    BLONDIE- I agree with you. The WT society is probably getting a ton of reports indicating JW's aren't showing up for their JC meetings- thus the aggressive information being printed out of desperation to maintain strict control over the rank & file AND the elders ! Your statement : " So does obedience to a man ( husband ) come ahead of obedience to God ? " Unfortunately yes in the case of the WT society. WT leaders would rather Witnesses obey them than obey God - if God's rules and regulations conflict with the WT society's rules and regulations. It's the reality of the situation truthfully.

    GL TIREBITER- Exactly. Good point.

    WATSON- Very true. WT society always tries to brush exiting JW's with a broad stroke to indicate that they are ALL wicked . All a bunch of sexual deviants ! LOL ! It's so ridiculous.

    STEVE 2- Exactly. Just imagine how bloodguilty the WT society is regarding JW's who have died over the years because they refused to accept blood transfusions ? I would love to know the approximate number of murders worldwide the WT society has committed by enforcing that rule. Sick turds.

    NEVERSCREAMAGAIN- Thanks. The article really pissed me off as well ! I imagine lots of JW's will just sit at the kingdom hall and nod their heads like bobblehead dolls at this info without flinching an eyelid when they study it. I don't know how they can do it either. Total mind control I guess.

    PHIZZY- I'm glad you know someone who woke up and got out of the cult as the saw the error of the information and domination. Good for your friend that she escaped and got her freedom !

    LOZHASLEFT- Thanks ! I appreciate it. I certainly try to be direct and hit nails on the head regarding information. It's very sobering information

    I'll be back in a little while to answer pg. 2 responses . Thanks again ! Keep the responses coming ! Very good responses on your part !

  • Mr. Falcon
    Mr. Falcon

    Mr. F

    This weekend, my still-in JW father cornered me and began grilling me about whether I was going to "come back" or not. I told him I will consider it the very second that the WTBS revised and corrects their completely bullsh*t policy on dealing with child abuse. (there's alot of other things I despise about this cult, but hey, I love using the child abuse angle because they really have NO comeback for it)

    Anywho, somewhere along the conversation he tossed out that classic JW apologist yarn about "well we have to remember that they aren't perfect men blah-blah-blah". My response:

    "Look Dad, that whole "imperfect men" thing is TIRED. Of course they aren't perfect, nobody ever said they were. And trust me, if there was anybody who would be the poster children for imperfection, it's these guys. So that's not the issue. The issue is that if you are going to weild a level of authority and influence over people's lives so much so that you can greatly affect them for better or worse, you CANNOT remove yourself from the level of responsibilty that you have taken upon yourself. And if you royally f*ck up someone's life because you tried to play Judge, Jury & Executioner, then I'm sorry but a simple shrugging "Well, I'm imperfect" IS NOT GOING TO CUT IT."

    My father's reaction:

    Keep it slappin',

    Mr. F (haha you see what i did there? I slay me!)

  • BluesBrother
    BluesBrother

    Yes...This is a doozy of an article ! and one that will either amuse or annoy an awful lot of dubs. Will they get the sense of it and recognize that they are being treated like the animals in Orwell's "Animal Farm" ? I doubt it..

    Some will take it seriously and resolve never to complain about the elders that Holy Spirit has apponted.

    Some will chuckle and think (but not say in public) "They are going over the top in that article"

    Some will feel angry that about the condescending tone of the F&DS, but shrug and carry on.

    A few ("those lucky few",sic Shakespeare) may start to worry about and question the elevation of the elder class from an original concept in which it was defined as "those getting dusty in the service of others" to a quasi clergy class with rights and status way above the ordinary publisher

  • flipper
    flipper

    O.K. Now for pg. 2 responses. Thanks for your thoughts.

    ARBOLESDEARABIA- Very accurate and good points you make about it being a " trickle down religion " where the pressure is applied to elders from C.O.s and D.O.s to elders, elders to ministerial servants, ministerial servants to publishers, husbands to wives, and wives to children. It's a complete pressure cooker where everybody is trying to control everybody. Indeed it drove me nuts, one reason I exited the Witnesses.

    And as you mention it causes others so much stress that they crack, throw their bookbags into the trash and walk away from the WT society taking people with them - thankfully. Like you say the " sheep " are starting to talk, speak out against the oppression and won't allow themselves to be bullied by WT powers anymore. AS you stated the WT society prefers it's members to " see no evil hear no evil " - but they can't keep people down forever. WT society faulty policy's on child abuse, mental illness, higher education, and blood transfusions in time just piss people off so much it's like : What did WT leaders EXPECT would happen ? People would lie down like dogs and continue to be kicked in the groin ? In time it gets old and the dogs rear up and bite the hand that's been feeding, er, starving them.

    YADDA YADDA 2- For sure WT society has printed artices like this, but they are getting more desperate to exert their control and power over rank & file JW's. For instance I told my wife this morning , " I've NEVER in all my life seen the WT society berate JW's for not attending judicial committee meetings . I've never seen them put that in print in their literature. " So a rebellion of sorts must be happening to an extent. Hard to say how much of a rebellion, but it must be enough to require WT leaders to put this in print.

    HOSER- Good point. Brazen conduct is alive and well ! LOL ! I'm glad that JW's are associating with DFed ones and asserting their thinking abilities in not being controlled by the WT " clergy class " anymore. I think it's freaking out WT leaders. Good. They need to be freaked out, as they are ruining people's lives.

    VIDIOT- EXactly. Authoritarian powers have and never will be concerned about people's rights. And the WT society IS an authoritarian cult. A dangerous one at that.

    REOPENED MIND- Good points. Indeed everything about this article SCREAMS mind control ! Your husband is right it is a total missapplication of the doctor illustration. Elders were nEVER trained to deal with real life human situations that come up. They were just trained to be " yes men " on behalf of the WT society and inflict damage on JW members who didn't conform to WT policies. Elders always had the last word in any little or big decision made in congregations and many times in private lives of publishers ! Pretty sick.

    LONG HAIR GAL- Well, as I've mentioned before - I don't read these magazines cover to cover. A lurking inactive JW friend of ours sends these WT study issues to us and I just peruse through them basically looking for words and thoughts that express mind control tactics from the WT society so I can expose the writings for what they are: total deception. Don't worry ! I'll never go back Long Hair Gal ! LOL ! It disgusts me as much as it does you believe me. I just want to expose it.

    Good point you mention when you said the WT society's motive is to chip away at Witnesses self esteem and they try to control these people through fear and threaten them with punishment if they waver. Ultimate controlling tactics.

    DATA-DOG- Good point about Paul & Esther. Actually if you read about a lot of Bible characters they ALL pretty much had weird idiosynchrancies and were offbeat characters walking to a different drummer. It's one reason I think the Bible was just written by men for men to abuse other men, women, and children throughout history.

    ROCKETMAN- Good point. So even you having served as an elder can see how lame the doctor illustration is.

    00DAD- Good points. Elders had very minimal training in really helping people with real life problems. And it DOES have very serious implications like you say. People's lives can be affected by the wrong or incorrect counsel given by elders in a disastrous way. When I first exited the cult in 2003 I said to myself, " There's no way in hell these guys have God's holy spirit " after meeting with the elders. And yes, control of the rank & file JW's is the ultimate goal with this article . Intimidating and scaring Witnesses to submit to elders authority. Browbeating the flock you might say. Pretty disgusting.

    PANHANDLEGIRL- Thanks . Indeed the WT society pulls interpretations of scriptures right out of their behinds and try to make it stick. How do they know who the " stars " are in Revelation ? Exactly my view ! All they try to do is hypocritically say " do as I say, not as I do " - and then put down anybody that refuses to submit to their authority. It's one reason elders did not like me when I was a Witness. I used my mnd and spoke my mind at times thus they viewed me as rebellious and a troublemaker - when actually I was just being honest. But in the Jehovah's Witness cult- honesty doesn't count for much, just being obedient counts. Sick.

    WHA HAPPENED ? - Good point. Paul publicly correcting one who is on the GB ? Oh the horror ! LOL ! It's really the same today, if a JW says ANYTHING negative regarding on of the 8 GB members now- they are looked at as a divisive force and hauled into the back room with 3 elders very quickly ! Incredible

  • flipper
    flipper

    MR. FALCON- Very interesting conversation you had with your JW dad. Very well done also in talking to him ! You bring up a great point here. If the WT society is " going to wield a level of authority and influence over people's lives so much that you can greatly affect them for better or worse , you CANNOT remove yourself from the level of responsibility that you have taken upon yourself. " That is an awesome summation of the problem right there how you express that ! Very well put ! If WT society powermongers are going to lay down the law - they have to accept responsibility for the laws being either unjust, ineffective, or just plain unreasonable in how these laws damage other human beings. Very true.

    BLUES BROTHER- It certainly IS a doozy of an article ! I'm sure this article will annoy some JW's enough to get them to start questioning the GB's sanity. Others will swallow the kool-aid, but if some startto doubt and question then that's a great thing ! Peace out, Mr. Flipper

  • solomon
    solomon

    Flipper,

    This came up with a friend of mine that is fed up with being harassed by one of the elders. My friend still believes it is the truth but I don't know for how long. My friend told me that there needs to be some kind of recall mechanism for abusive elders if the congregation doesn't want them as elders anymore. Good luck I told her!

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