The same month I lost my faith in God was when I was appointed an elder

by Most Noble 39 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Christ Alone

  Ok, fine, I'll do it. Here it goes.

  First of all he claims: " I have tried it and I have gotten 47 people out in 6 months, while I am still seen as a publisher in good standing." First of all he NOW claims to be an elder, not a publisher. But this could just be a slip, so I'll give him that one. However, the 47 people out seems to fall under the category of either an outright lie or at least greatly inflated. There is absolutely no way that a JW in good standing (one that has been chosen to give CA and DC parts could succesfully get 47 people to actually leave the organization within 6 months. We can give people the benefit of the doubt here, but we can still be intelligent and use our God given sense of detecting...well....BS.

  He goes further along these same lines by saying: " I have made 6 MS inactive in 6 months, 18 unbaptized publishers, 20 single brothers and 3 younger guys ." Yeah...ok.

  As far as non JW doctrines, he brought out later that he would be speaking at the assembly and showing that we all need to be following the direction given by "Jehovah's Bride" and that this statement is in the outline. Most somewhat intelligent and well versed JWs know that Jehovah's Bride is nothing taught or refered to by the WTS. They talk about JESUS bride only. He goes on to say: " While the GB of JW represent JV's wife, having a more closer intimacy with Jehovah." Again, this would be new light since the Bible speaks only of the marriage of the anointed to Jesus Christ, in which case there would be a reverse sort of polygamy. Jesus AND Jehovah being the husband? Nope. It doesn't fit.

  This was enough for me to say, "Yeah, this guy can't be telling the truth here." But to keep things going further he then claims that as he became an atheist, he was appointed as an elder. Why is every story so fantastic?

  I think I give people the benefit of the doubt when they are speaking. I don't automatically think anyone is lying. But there comes a point where the pieces just don't fit and I have to call it. 47 people saved out of the organization in 6 months? Caused 6 MS to become "inactive"? After all this he was chosen for an assembly part where he is told to talk about Jehovah's Bride? Nope. Can't believe it.
• 

  Christ Alone

  Also, Marvin, yes I understand that the burden of proof lays on the one making the claim that he's not being truthful. But it appeared to me that the overall impression here was that he WAS making these things up. So if that is what is being said, and the reasons have already been given as to WHY everyone thinks he is making it up (just look on his posts...he was called out almost immediately), then I would say that if you are believing what he says, it's ok for me to ask why you think he IS being truthful.

  So now I put it back on you. I gave you my reasons for calling him out. Why do you think that it is reasonable to believe that he's saved 47 people UNDETECTED, from the WT in only 6 months?
• 

  Christ Alone

  One other thing: He only has 14 posts! All these claims were made and so many people are questioning what he said, and he's only created a few posts.
• 

  flipper

  MOST NOBLE- Hang in there my friend. It's normal to be having doubts, especially if you are on the inside as an elder as much more WT information is disclosed to you than an ordinary publisher in the congregation. And with more disclosure of info from the WT society comes more disclosure of how dishonest and coercive their tactics are in dealing with rank & file JW's. So yeah, give yourself a pat on the back and feel good about having a humane conscience that sees through the dishonest WT tactics. Hang in there- we are here for you, O.K. ? Many of us have been there, done this, walked the walk. And don't feel alone- there are probably hundreds if not thousands of elders feeling the exact same way you are feeling right now. So, as I said we will be here for you, remember if ever you want to talk or vent
• 

  Marvin Shilmer

  -

  “First of all he claims: "I have tried it and I have gotten 47 people out in 6 months, while I am still seen as a publisher in good standing." This would fall under the category of either an outright lie or at least greatly inflated. There is absolutely no way that a JW in good standing (one that has been chosen to give CA and DC parts could succesfully get 47 people to actually leave the organization within 6 months. We can give people the benefit of the doubt here, but we can still be intelligent and use our God given sense of detecting...well....BS.

  “He goes further along these same lines by saying: "I have made 6 MS inactive in 6 months, 18 unbaptized publishers, 20 single brothers and 3 younger guys ." Yeah...ok.”

  Christ Alone,

  I read that too. It’s fairly common to exaggerate claims of this nature, and sometimes it’s true. As I asked before, who do you know that has never ever made a stupid exaggeration?

  “As far as non JW doctrines, he brought out later that he would be speaking at the assembly and showing that we all need to be following the direction given by "Jehovah's Bride". Most somewhat intelligent and well versed JWs know that Jehovah's Bride is nothing taught or refered to by the WTS. They talk about JESUS bride only. He goes on to say: "While the GB of JW represent JV's wife, having a more closer intimacy with Jehovah." Again, this would be new light since the Bible speaks only of the marriage of the anointed to Jesus Christ, in which case there would be a reverse sort of polygamy. Jesus AND Jehovah being the husband? Nope. It doesn't fit.”

  I’ve heard long-standing elders with grammar school educations say much, much dumber things than that! So what is your point? It is not at all uncommon for Jehovah’s Witnesses to get doctrinal points backwards at all hours of the day and at least twice on Sundays. The fact that an allegedly newly appointed elder says something like this only continues the ever-flowing stream of evidence supporting notions of low quality education attaining appointment within Watchtower's leadership structure. Oh, and I almost forgot to mention the notion of “Jehovah’s bride” may be a typo or maybe, just maybe, an allusion to “Jehovah’s woman.”

  “This was enough for me to say, "Yeah, this guy can't be telling the truth here." But to keep things going further he then claims that as he became an atheist, he was appointed as an elder. Why is every story so fantastic?”

  An atheist? Now THERE is an exaggeration!!!

  For a JW in the throws of learning momma-Watchtower has not been telling the truth to say they’re having “mixed feelings about the existence of God and WT's legitimacy” is not the same as laying claim to atheism. Surely you must know that. You do have more than two brain cells rubbing together. Right?

  “I think I give people the benefit of the doubt when they are speaking. I don't automatically think anyone is lying. But there comes a point where the pieces just don't fit and I have to call it. 47 people saved out of the organization in 6 months? Caused 6 MS to become "inactive"? After all this he was chosen for an assembly part where he is told to talk about Jehovah's Bride? Nope. Can't believe it.”

  I don’t believe that part either, but then again it could be true for reasons unknown to us. That does not make the individual less than genuine in their participation here. Moreover, because you just asserted an exaggeration does not make me question your genuineness either!

  Well, at least you shared your reasons for holding the view you do. For that I’d applaud you. Thanks.

  Marvin Shilmer

  http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com
• 

  Christ Alone

  An atheist ? Now THERE is an exaggeration!!!

  Ummm...did you read the title of this thread? Maybe I read into it too much. But he didn't say that he lost his faith in the organization. He said he lost his faith in God. I assumed that meant that he lost faith in God completely. He says that he WAS HAVING mixed feelings about God when he was appointed as an elder. Taking that statement and comparing it to the tile of the thread I took that to mean he is now an atheist. If I read too much into that, I apologize. I wasn't even refering to that in a negative way. I don't mind if someone loses their faith in God. It wasn't meant to be any sort of acusation as if it is ridiculous to lose your faith in God. But apparently other posters on this thread read into it as I did. I guess I could pose that question to "Most Noble". Do you deny the existence of God?

  Marvin, you're double speaking here. You are admitting that he has to be exaggerating with the comment about 47 people. You are also making it sound like it was just an offhand remark as a stupid exaggeration. But no. He broke down the 47 people into SPECIFIC people he got to leave. " I have made 6 MS inactive in 6 months, 18 unbaptized publishers, 20 single brothers and 3 younger guys ." This was a SPECIFIC number of people, not an offhanded exaggeration. How many people do I know that have made stupid exaggerations? Plenty. But I'll call them out on it if it is a lie. It will do something to my trusting what they say in the future.

  Also, you were asking WHY we were questioning his validity. I gave you the reasons. Believe him if you want, but it doesn't add up. I did not exaggerate his claims. Besides calling him an atheist, which I admit I could be wrong about, I only used his own words. I'm not exactly sure why you are defending his claims so much when you admit that they could not be true (at least the 47 out in 6 months). He was questioned about it, and he did not budge from that number. If he is willing to outright lie about THAT, then why not about the other stuff. And in only 14 posts...

  You also say that maybe he just doesn't have the knowledge about doctrine that he should as an elder. Other elders did not know much, so maybe he doesn't either. Did I interpret you correctly? Well, he did not make the claim on his own. He said it was IN THE OUTLINE. He says that the GB is spoken of as being Jehovah's wife. This isn't just a personal issue of getting something wrong. No, he claims that the WT THEMSELVES told him to say this stuff. So it's either new light, or it's a lie. We all know that the WT does not use simple elders to reveal new light. It's always given in the form of a manuscript talk that is followed by a WT article.

  If I'm reading into this wrong, please let me know HOW. I have no reason to disbelieve him personally. It just doesn't add up and I want to make sure someone is telling the truth before I believe them. So far, it's a no go for me.
• 

  Christ Alone

  All this being said, Most Noble, if I have it wrong and all these claims and statements are true, I whole heartedly apologize. If you really ARE in throws of learning that mama organization is wrong, and these stories are a way to help you deal with the new realizations, then again, I apologize.
• 

  Most Noble

  Christ alone - Why waste precious time writing meaningless post to defend a claim you knew nothing about about someone you have no clue who he really is.

  I just came up here to put down what I felt and experience in my own personal life, and all of a sudden, you put your hands on your hips and wielded a rhetorical sword against me, by scrutinising my intentions. please dont bring thesame kind of KH attitude here, live and let live.
• 

  Christ Alone

  Why waste precious time writing meaningless posts to defend a claim you knew nothing about about someone you have no clue who he really is.

  I was asked to give a reason why I'm leary of some of the claims that you've made. I wasn't going to post anything other than that single post. But Marvin asked my reasons for having some distrust here, so I gave him details. It was what he asked of me.

  Why waste the time? Because I think everyone here wants this to be a trustworthy site for information.

  That being said, I didn't mean to offend you. You have to understand why I have my doubts. Think of it from our perspective.

  Again, I don't want to drive you away from here. And I apologize that I may have been too harsh in my criticism. I think everyone wants only honest comments, beliefs, and experiences here. And if something doesn't sound right, you will hear something about it. Like I said, if I'm wrong and all the claims you've made are 100% accurate, then I apologize. But so far I have seen no reason to believe that you have personally gotten 47 people to leave the organization in 6 months.

  47 people is half of a congregation. I think that wouldn't go unnoticed...
• 

  Christ Alone

  you put your hands on your hips and wielded a rhetorical sword against me

  I don't have 3 hands. Wish I did...