Firearms in USA

by Haereticus 28 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  plmkrzy

  We used guns for target practice only. Stop signs and things.
  .................
• 

  AjaxMan

  Abbadon,

  It is funny how Americans are criticized by Europeans when it comes to gun ownership when more than HALF the guns (and the best made) owned by Americans come from European Countries. Especially, Law Enforcement Agencies in America uses mainly European Brands:
  - SIG-SAUER is a Swiss/German consortium supplying pistols to Law Enforcement and Commercial. Last I heard, Switzerland and Germany are part of Europe.
  - Heckler & Koch is German and supplies to both Law Enforcement and Civilian.
  - Glock is Austrian and also supplies to both Law Enforcement and Civilian. Austria is an European country last I heard.
  - Beretta, Benelli and Tanfoglio are Italians. Italy is in Europe.
  - FN (Fabrique Nationale) is Belgian and supplies to military. Belgium is in Europe.
  - CZ (Czeska Zrobojska) is Czech. Czech Republic is in Europe.
  - Makarov is Russian, but also made in former Warsaw Pact Countries and all these countries are in Europe.

  The list goes on. There are more European brands of firearms on American market than domestic. Since law enforcement and military uses them because of their reliabilty, it's no surprise that civilians will use them too.

  On the subject of firearms, it is an European country that made the most influence in the design of a lot of firearms today: Germany.
  They were the first one to create the sub-machine gun. They were the first one to create the Assault rifle.
  It is also an European country that produced and exported the most firearms to the world: Belgium.

  So before you Europeans start criticizing us about our gun ownership, keep in mind that your countries are making money exporting your firearms to us and to the rest of the world. Also, keep in mind that when America was first created, there is an Amendment in our constitution to allow us the right to bear arms and all the firearms companies know it.

  I am not anti-gun. In fact, I am very pro-gun as I own firearms.

  my 2 cents.
• 

  Abaddon

  Bendrr: If what I said didn't say it clearly enough, let me say I am sure if I was an 'average' American (a non-existant thing, but your statistical norm, if you will), I am sure I would be in favour of firearms.

  That's my entire point. We dealing with an issue that is deeply effected by enculturation. Even the most cosmopolitan American is American, unless they live there long enough, and the most Amerophile European will similarly still be a European unless they actually change their culture for a substancial length of time.

  A similar divide can be seen in the Death Penalty debate. It's almost unknown in most of Europe, and completely absent in Western and Northern Europe as far as I can recall. 'We', as a statistical norm, just don't understand why Americans, as a statistical norm, think Judicail Killing is a good idea. An example of how the culture can effect this over time is in West Germany.

  After the war, the government, in face of popular opposition, abolished the death penalty. I believe at the time over 50% were still in favour of it, but below 60%. Now maybe 12% of Germans are in favour of it, as they have grown up in a culture where it is not done and thus are enculturated.

  Abortion is a similar debate, the divide this time being between fundamental Christians for the most part, and mostly libertarians, left-wingers and 'feminists' on the other side. Of course there's loads of other people involved, the silent majority, but the debate is polarised by it's two main ideological components.

  In all of these examples debate is difficult, as what one side has to say doesn't mean much to the other, and vica-versa. They at times could be have arguements about two seperate thing, so different are the paradigms used.

  One side is right for their reasons, and the other side is right for theirs, and nere the twain will meet, not for a few decades at any rate.

  My little piece was intended to just be a gentle satire, on both sides, although obviously as a lefto-pinko-European, I will not deny making the ball swing a bit.

  However, I've travelled a fair bit in America, and never seen a gun other than on a Policeman and never stayed with anyone with a gun rack, but perhaps Jehovah's Witnesses, ex-patriot Brits, strict Kansas Baptists and gay people in Seattle aren't representative! That being said, there is a huge difference in practise and thought regarding firearms, if you look at the statistics, no matter whether the individuals reading such a statement are anti-gun or pro-gun.

  AjaxMan; I don't see the fact that some Europeans make money out of a pretty disreputable industry has anything to do with why gun ownership may or may not be a good idea!

  Okay, obviously selling guns isn't intrinsically wrong, but it has the potential for intrinsic harm, and often all that matters to sellers and maker is the money, if they can lobby for greater market freedom, rather than the potential harm.

  But given that people will make money this way, all I can do is apologise for the possibly ambivalent morals of some European businesmen and women. I can't apologise for the people that buy the guns, nor do I want anyone to.
• 

  AjaxMan

  Abbadon,

  How about this:
  "The mentality in America is different from Europe". What works for Europeans doesn't necessarily work for Americans.

  Also, even if you don't like it, it is in the Constitution in America that people has the right to bear arms. Whether you agree with it or not, it is there since 1776. So, people here will bear arms anyways. Since there has been too much proliferation of firearms in America, banning them right now will be a very BAD idea. If you think banning firearms will deter crime, forget it:
  - Criminals will get their weapons illegally whether they will steal it from someone else or smuggle them into the country.
  - More crimes, such as rapes, burglaries, robberies, any form of assault or mugging, will be committed as criminals will know nobody can carry and own firearms.
  - More dependency on the police, increase in police vigilance. That will create a police state. If you've been under the watchful eye of the Watchtower Society, a police state is no different. I don't want to live in a police state. I've been there, done that and it is none of their business what I do with my spare time. A police state will always infringe on individual freedoms and rights.

  Those Gun Ban laws affect mainly the law-abiding citizens.

  You said that you travelled extensively to America. Have you live there for a long period of time?
  Here in America, if you choose not to own a firearm, you have every right to do so. No one is going to force you to own a firearm. I own firearms by choice and I will live with that responsibility and choice. I also own firearms because I am in marksmanship.

  The view that all Americans own firearms is a big fallacy: I personally know people and friends that don't own firearms and they are from different backgrounds and creed.

  When it comes to (legal) firearms ownership in America, it depends on which state are you living: In the NorthEast (New England, NJ, NY), it is more difficult to own firearms than in the South (Florida, Texas, Georgia, Alabama).
• 

  Perry

  I have been planning to give up my firearms for some time now.... when they pry them from my cold, dead hands.

  UADNA-TX
  Unseen Apostate Directorate of North America
• 

  Pork Chop

  Not all Europeans have the same attitude toward firearms. The Swiss, for example, are very heavily armed and very pro-gun. I think there are a couple of other countries as well.

  There is no prohibition on Witnesses owning handguns. Carrying one specifically for protection from people will mean that you won't have special privileges. I know that there are some places in Alaska where Witnesses carry large caliber handguns because of bears, even in the ministry.

  Now that might make it interesting if someone slammed a door in their face!
• 

  Haereticus

  Pork Chop

  Swiss are interesting exception because the possession of firearms is tied form of military duty. It would be interesting to know a JW stand in this setup.

  Besides certain civil servats taxi drivers and certain private security workers for example can here apply for a permit to carry around an unconsealed firearm. My interest is a JW attitude, understanding that anybody is entitled here applying a permit. It will only be denied on certain grounds. I believe I would be eligible as well.
• 

  plmkrzy

  I think culture has a lot to do with it. There was a bro. in my cong. who was not df'd but reproved for choosing to carry his fire arm .He is a COP. He had to change his position on the force and now he investi gates traffic accidents. The last I heard anyway that was about 3 years ago.
  On the other hand much of my family live in the eastern and southern states. Guns are perfectly alright in many of those communities.You can never tell when you might have to defend the chickens from a chicken hawk.

  plmkrzy

  "I look to the sea, reflections in the waves spark my memory
  Some happy,some sad"

  styx
  
  This one most definitely Happy

  PLEASE excuse my bad atrosious spelling. I am a bit under the weather and just don't feel like proof reading today.
• 

  Abaddon

  How many times does one have to say one is addressing statistical norms? I realise that there are many exceptions to these, but just listing them doesn't mean that the majority of American's are in favour of gun ownership, and that many own them, and that this sitaution is reveresed in Europe?

  AjaxMan, your statement is a good sumation of what I'm saying;

  "The mentality in America is different from Europe". What works for Europeans doesn't necessarily work for Americans.

  I think you'd better check up on American history though, the 'Right To Bear Arms' is an ammendment, the 2nd or 1st, I can't recall, so it hasn;t been there since 1776, it was put in place later. Thus my point earlier about ammendment maybe need ammending from time to time, and the Right to Bear Arms being considered less changable than the ten commandments.

  I don't know why you're trying to convince me that;

  Since there has been too much proliferation of firearms in America, banning them right now will be a very BAD idea. If you think banning firearms will deter crime, forget it:

  ... as I state this quite clearly earlier... the US is a hopeless case, nothing can realistically be done about it, there are too many guns already.

  That is the ONLY reason for me that counts - all the other stuff about criminals having guns anyway, more crime, dependancy on the police, are pretty shakey, as countries with less common firearm ownership seem to do quite well. The only reason it can't work in the US is there's too many guns already - so many you could all have one each!

  My comments about travelling around America already contain my comments about my observations while there as compared to stereotypical expectations, so the other questions you ask else where in your post have already been answered.

  Basically I think you've misunderstood my arguement, which is that there is no point in discussing firearms, as the point-of-views are so different the defence for weapons doesn't make any sense to those against them, the the reasons not to have weapons make no sense to those in favour of them.

  I'm not saying me right, you wrong.