In certain instances, in society's courts of Law, a false accusation takes place. A wrong conviction happens and only a heroic effort on the part of family, friends and attorneys can save the wrongfully convicted person from penalty, imprisonment or death.
Another possiblity might also occur:
If you are wrongfully accused and convicted but saved by the very person who accused you--what then? I'm not speaking of an error in judgement, mind you, but a deliberate act!
Wouldn't it be correct to state emphatically:
You cannot be heroically saved from a crime you did not commit by the person who falsely accuses you of the crime (in the sense of a heroic deed by the accuser.) It would be highly cynical and cruel on the part of the false accuser as a ruse to appear righteous in such a "rescue." The whole set-up would be self-serving and a fraud.
With that in mind consider an actual Mental Illness referred to as Munchausen by Proxy Syndrome.
What Is Munchausen by Proxy Syndrome?
In MBPS, usually a parent - deliberately makes their own child sick so that in caring for and saving the child the parent will appear to others as selfless and heoric and sympathetic. The parent or caregiver misleads others into thinking that the child has medical problems by lying and reporting fictitious episodes. He or she may exaggerate, fabricate, or induce symptoms.
Because the parent or caregiver appears to be so caring and attentive, often no one suspects any wrongdoing. A perplexing aspect of the syndrome is the ability of the parent or caregiver to fool and manipulate doctors. It's not unusual for medical personnel to overlook the possibility of Munchausen by Proxy Syndrome because it goes against the belief that a parent or caregiver would never deliberately hurt his or her child.
Where am I going with all of this?
Consider the account in the Garden of Eden in which we have a parent (God) and His earthly children (Adam, Eve).
An injury took place that was ultimately fatal.
An invulnerable and eternal God is said to have been "injured" by the actions of two humans.
The penalty for that "injury" (disobedience or sin) was divine "justice" by death penalty.
Something out of the ordinary distorts the issue of who was really injured and who might heorically save the humans from the death sentence.
Distortion must be cleared up for Justice to occur.
What if Jehovah is guilty of Munchausen by Proxy Syndrome?
Adam lived 930 years and died. That is a long life by today's standards. Adam suffered the injury of aging and physical extinction. Eve too aged and died.
That (aging and dying) is a penalty.
But--the children and grandchildren of Adam and Eve lived shorter lives and suffered an unlimited injury.
None of these children EXISTED in the Garden of Eden; they cannot have participated in the ACT of rebellion against Jehovah. If these not-yet-existing children are damaged by the penalty against their parents it can only be because the RETALIATION against Adam and Eve was excessive to the harm against Jehovah.
If Jehovah put to death ON THE SPOT both Eve and Adam no children would die because they had NEVER LIVED!
You cannot destroy what does not exist! By the same token, you cannot (with Justice) penalize what does not yet exist or (logically) plan to redeem what does not exist.
Who is the injured party if not the children of Adam and Eve?
What possible insult to Jehovah can have taken place in the absence of unborn children (by the billions) which calls for (in justice) the aging and dying of these not existing victims of the rebellion?
This is where THEOLOGY seeks to step in and explain (apology) how this is not only justice but LOVE on the part of Jehovah.
What is wrong with the Doctrine of the Fall of Man (as a group) is making it a GROUP in the first place.
Further, an impossible mechanism is invented for this purpose: THE TRANSMISSION OF SIN by being born!!
SIN is a personal failure. An archer aims for the target and misses. The failure is the "sin" of missing the mark that was aimed at.
An unborn child cannot be born a bad archer!
You can thank the church fathers for this ludicrous explanation.
JUSTICE restores......
Somebody explain how Jehovah was INJURED by unborn children and you will succeed in explaining why he holds them responsible for acts committed when they were not present and took no part in any conspiracy to commit.
Hint: YOU CANNOT.
What is wrong with this doctrine is that it makes God out to be a fiend, a sadist and a brute.
It is like the sociopath who injures children for the purpose of rescuing them and appearing a hero! (Munchausen by Proxy Syndrome.)
A stunning conisderation of injustice: the FALL of MAN and his Salvation
by Terry 21 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Terry
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edmond dantes
You have good insight Terry and your explanation illustrates how ridiculous the mythology is thanks for that.
Mankind is made to suffer because of an act of a God who has had his nose put out of joint so to speak it just don't make sense.
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Terry
To make this easier to understand we focus on the unwitting (innocent) victims who do NOT YET EXIST who are
collatoral damage.
Why is the Unborn world of mankind-yet-to-come guilty of anything?
It is the ACCUSATION by God which exacts the penalty in the first place.
The children of Adam and Eve only exist when each is actually born---not BEFFORE!
Condemnation of a non-conceived human by an invulnerable parent cannot lead to a heroic rescue by that same parent!
It cannot be "love". Love would not place in mortal danger non-existent humanity in the first place.
It is the insistence on the part of God that each human must DIE which is the enemy of mankind.
Pretending to "forgive" somebody for a so-called crime of which they are innocent is hardly an act of love.
The Watchtower "explains" that a cakepan with a dent produces cakes with a dent.
False analogy never explains anything! A "dent" is physical. Sin is not physical.
A person who picks up a bow and arrow and aims at a target and misses the bullseye is physically demonstrating something.
All the children that will (in the future) be born to that person with the bow and arrow are not mysteriously bound by their accuracy or inaccuracy.
There are many a genius born to simple parents as well as under-achievers born to highly educated people.
Only the simple-minded would accept the dent in the cakepan as an "explanation" of anything serious.
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Theocratic Sedition
Glad to see you alive and kicking, Terry. Great thread, I dont believe anyone can refute what you posted without looking insane.
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doofdaddy
After reading your arguement I came to a further conclusion. What a brilliant way to cement unconditional devotion. Tell people that god put a test to our ancesters, they failed so miserably that we and in fact all humans must pay with death. Ah but don't fear as loving god killed his son just for us to get (possible) life (in the possible future sometime). But this will only happen if we devote our all without question. It's foundation is fear and guilt but nevertheless gets the result. With most religions using a similar base no wonder the planet has not moved on from war, distrust...
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Terry
Imagine a billionaire who gathers as many midgets, dwarfs and other "little people" as he can into a town he has built called Paradise.
There is only one law in this town. If you break the law you have to die.
The law is stated like this: "Anybody caught being under 6 feet tall is guilty of offending our benefactor, Mister billionaire, and will receive the death penalty."
Because Mister Billionaire is a benefactor he will only delay carrying out the death penalty long enough for the guilty to produce offspring.
Now, at a certain point, Mister Billionaire comes up with a proviso: "Anybody declaring me a benevolent hero and all-round great guy will be pardoned for the horrible violation of the town's law."
The most popular catchphrase in town becomes: Mister Billionaire saves!
There are, however, several Little People who are indignant over the whole set up. They move out of Paradise and take up residence elsewhere.
The are hunted down, of course, and put to death anyway!
You can't escape Mister Billionaire's justice.
It IS justice, because, well---he's the most powerful guy around!
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tec
Well, Terry, i haven't had a discussion with you in a while ;) Glad to hear from you. I cannot agree with you, however, because your premise has assumptions.
Consider the account in the Garden of Eden in which we have a parent (God) and His earthly children (Adam, Eve).
His children, sure.
An injury took place that was ultimately fatal.
An action took place that was ultimately fatal.
An invulnerable and eternal God is said to have been "injured" by the actions of two humans.
Who said this?
The penalty for that "injury" (disobedience or sin) was divine "justice" by death penalty.
The natural consequence for the action was death.
God did not allow them to eat from the tree of life and live forever, however. Because of what they had shown they would do with immortality. (Adam did not act in love... one is not showing love for another when one blames another or throws them under the bus instead of taking responsibility and - as Christ did - offering his life for hers, and taking the 'sin' onto himself alone) We have only to look at man today, to see that if some (most?) had such power, they would use it to dominate their fellow man.
Yet, God also showed divine 'mercy' and 'wisdom' in ensuring that we (the children of Adam and Eve), and perhaps Adam and Eve as well, did not have to die eternally. Because God gave Adam and Eve flesh (garments of skin) that trapped death and sin in IT, rather than in the spirit. For in the garden of eden (a spiritual place) Adam and Eve were spiritual beings as well. They could move in and out - spirit and flesh - until God made them 'garments of skin' (which was NOT animal skin for clothing) that they were trapped within. As Paul says... we are spirit trapped in these vessels of flesh. And sin and death are in the flesh.
The flesh that we are trapped within, as I see it, is also a shield.
God did not punish. He protected AND found a way for any who would choose life (which is in His Son) to have that free gift.
Moving on to the children of Adam and Eve:
But--the children and grandchildren of Adam and Eve lived shorter lives and suffered an unlimited injury.
Okay, perhaps... though the "injury" is just part of life now. I will explain below.
None of these children EXISTED in the Garden of Eden; they cannot have participated in the ACT of rebellion against Jehovah. If these not-yet-existing children are damaged by the penalty against their parents it can only be because the RETALIATION against Adam and
Eve was excessive to the harm against Jehovah.
If Jehovah put to death ON THE SPOT both Eve and Adam no children would die because they had NEVER LIVED!
Exactly. We would not be alive. Because we come from Adam/Eve. In their likeness. With the garments of skin that has death and sin trapped within it. Adam and Eve had children, and those children would be the same 'species/race/likeness' as them. Spirits within vessels of flesh. To complain seems foolish. We would not be alive otherwise. There would be no mankind.
Who is the injured party if not the children of Adam and Eve?
Oh, I agree, they are the injured party. But not by God's hand. God did not abandon them; He made a way home for them, even after the decision and consequence reaped at the hand of Adam.
What possible insult to Jehovah can have taken place in the absence of unborn children (by the billions) which calls for (in justice) the aging and dying of these not existing victims of the rebellion?
Like I said... no injury. God saved Adam and Eve from death (in the spirit) by trapping that sin and death in the flesh. So that none of us HAVE to die (in the spirit... and it is the spirit that counts). Had He not stepped in, there would be no us to begin with... or there would be those who had eternal life who used such life and power without love, mercy, or forgiveness against their fellow man.
This is where THEOLOGY seeks to step in and explain (apology) how this is not only justice but LOVE on the part of Jehovah.
Okay, guess I did that already.
What is wrong with the Doctrine of the Fall of Man (as a group) is making it a GROUP in the first place.
Further, an impossible mechanism is invented for this purpose: THE TRANSMISSION OF SIN by being born!!
SIN is a personal failure. An archer aims for the target and misses. The failure is the "sin" of missing the mark that was aimed at.
An unborn child cannot be born a bad archer!Think more along the lines of genetics. If you brought death into your genepool, then your offspring (what comes from YOU) is subject to it.
You can thank the church fathers for this ludicrous explanation.
JUSTICE restores......
Somebody explain how Jehovah was INJURED by unborn children and you will succeed in explaining why he holds them responsible for acts committed when they were not present and took no part in any conspiracy to commit.
Hint: YOU CANNOT.You are correct, but there is no need to. God does not hold an innocent responsible for acts committed by others.
What is wrong with this doctrine is that it makes God out to be a fiend, a sadist and a brute.
People not understanding that God saved us is what makes some think he is a fiend, sadist or brute. But God has only ever acted to protect and teach us; and to give us a way to Him, through the Life that is in His Son.
That IS His nature. That is the very nature Christ showed. To serve, to teach, to give life, to save.
Peace Terry. I know we haven't talked in a while, so this might seem to come out of left field. But I've understood this for some time now.
tammy
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tec
I dont believe anyone can refute what you posted without looking insane.
Uh oh ;)
Peace,
tammy
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Satanus
'It IS justice, because, well---he's the most powerful guy around!'
Maybe, why they are montheistic. Better mass control. Worked so good for christians, mohammed adopted the same idea, w a few updates.
S
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james_woods
More complicated, Terry: Mr. Billionaire sends a token midget to midgetville and has him ceremonially killed.
Now, he says - worship the ceremonial midget, or else I will kill you. If you worship the ceremonial midget, you will no longer be midgets, but will be symbolically 6' tall.
I don't really WANT to kill you, but I am just gonna have to if you don't worship the ceremonial midget. Don't want to - gonna have to (legally).
(and the people wonder - why don't you just not kill us in the first place?)