It's Time to Dump the Hebrew Scriptures.

by smmcroberts 47 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    Why do Christian religions continue to pretend that the Hebrew Scriptures (aka the Old Testament) is God-inspired ?

    Well it was god inspired from people who worship their particular god at that time.

    Sure they made up embellished stories to circumvent a semblance power and presence about their god but so did many other ancient civilizations

    concerning their own god(s)

    One thing that bible believers might be puzzled with is that archeologists recently have discovered ancient civilizations that existed thousands of years

    prior to the civilization that existed in the land of Judea. Where was the god of the bible (YHWH) when those civilizations existed ?

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    They bible should only be taken as reference to ancient human history and nothing else !

  • glenster
    glenster

    glenster: In other words, the people were more HUMANe than the god their
    priests had created.

    The stickler there is over what was created. It's debatable whether or not the
    Talmud reflects the BC interpretation of the stubborn son, so none can say it's a
    later change. But if what's asked is what to make of a worst case interpreta-
    tion, I don't assume that, either. I'm not worried about literal kids killed in
    an allegorical flood, for example, like a Jack Thompson of the OT. I love
    GTA's. Another post questions whether or not we need to use a worst case inter-
    pretation of the bears as well. Amalekites, etc.:

    "Herem or cherem...as used in the Hebrew Bible, means ‘devote’ or ‘destroy’.
    It is also referred to as the ban. The term has been explained in different ways
    by scholars. It has been defined as 'a mode of secluding, and rendering harm-
    less, anything imperilling the religious life of the nation,' or 'the total
    destruction of the enemy and his goods at the conclusion of a campaign,' or "un-
    compromising consecration of property and dedication of the property to God with-
    out possibility of recall or redemption. J. A. Thompson suggests that herem
    meant that in the hour of victory all that would normally be regarded as booty,
    including the inhabitants of the land, was to be devoted to God. Thus would every
    harmful thing be burned out and the land purified."

    "Most scholars conclude that the biblical accounts of extermination are exag-
    gerated, fictional, or metaphorical. In the archaeological community, the Bat-
    tle of Jericho is very thoroughly studied, and the consensus of modern scholars
    is that the story of battle and the associated extermination are a pious fiction
    and did not happen as described in the Book of Joshua. For example, the Book of
    Joshua describes the extermination of the Canaanite tribes, yet at a later time,
    Judges 1:1-2:5 suggests that the extermination was not complete."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herem
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milkhemet_Mitzvah

    Since I understand faith in a possible God, therefore not wanting harm over
    it as for a God proven to all, I regard the move from OT to NT, from hope for a
    land with religion as law of the land to not asking for that, as an improvement
    in how the faith evolved--not a move from faith. But I regard belief or non-be-
    lief made law of the land as institutionalized 'centric intolerance that's caused
    the most harm. The culprit to me isn't God with a need to find something humane
    otherwise but to see it as a choice whether or not to have faith understood as
    such, and the culprit is being 'centric or intolerant either way.

  • glenster
    glenster

    glenster: In other words, the people were more HUMANe than the god their
    priests had created.

    The stickler there is over what was created. It's debatable whether or not the
    Talmud reflects the BC interpretation of the stubborn son, so none can say it's a
    later change. But if what's asked is what to make of a worst case interpreta-
    tion, I don't assume that, either. I'm not worried about literal kids killed in
    an allegorical flood, for example, like a Jack Albertson of the OT. I love
    GTA's. Another post questions whether or not we need to use a worst case inter-
    pretation of the bears as well. Amalekites, etc.:

    "Herem or cherem...as used in the Hebrew Bible, means ‘devote’ or ‘destroy’.
    It is also referred to as the ban. The term has been explained in different ways
    by scholars. It has been defined as 'a mode of secluding, and rendering harm-
    less, anything imperilling the religious life of the nation,' or 'the total
    destruction of the enemy and his goods at the conclusion of a campaign,' or "un-
    compromising consecration of property and dedication of the property to God with-
    out possibility of recall or redemption. J. A. Thompson suggests that herem
    meant that in the hour of victory all that would normally be regarded as booty,
    including the inhabitants of the land, was to be devoted to God. Thus would every
    harmful thing be burned out and the land purified."

    "Most scholars conclude that the biblical accounts of extermination are exag-
    gerated, fictional, or metaphorical. In the archaeological community, the Bat-
    tle of Jericho is very thoroughly studied, and the consensus of modern scholars
    is that the story of battle and the associated extermination are a pious fiction
    and did not happen as described in the Book of Joshua. For example, the Book of
    Joshua describes the extermination of the Canaanite tribes, yet at a later time,
    Judges 1:1-2:5 suggests that the extermination was not complete."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herem
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milkhemet_Mitzvah

    Since I understand faith in a possible God, therefore not wanting harm over
    it as for a God proven to all, I regard the move from OT to NT, from hope for a
    land with religion as law of the land to not asking for that, as an improvement
    in how the faith evolved--not a move from faith. But I regard belief or non-be-
    lief made law of the land as institutionalized 'centric intolerance that's caused
    the most harm. The culprit to me isn't God with a need to find something humane
    otherwise but to see it as a choice whether or not to have faith understood as
    such, and the culprit is being 'centric or intolerant either way.

  • steve2
    steve2

    How could anyone ever be serious about "dumping" one of the most important and pivotal Holy Books ever written?

    Where else can mankind draw upon Scriptures to justify genocide, slavery, oppression of women and persecution of gays? Where else is violence against the apostates and unbelievers glorified and encouraged? where savage, jealous-minded religiosity sits side by comfortable side with heartfelt psalms to one's loving Creator?

    Wash your mouth out with soap, girl (or boy).

    And watchout for falling signs from the heavens in punishment for your unfortunate blasphemy!

  • mP
    mP

    @CHristAlone

    One reason is that the Old Testament contains hundreds of prophecies about the coming of the messiah, his life, and death. You can't have Christianity without Judaism.

    MP:

    Actually it doesnt, most are terrible twists. Take the prophecy of being born in Bethlehem in Micah 5:2. Read a few verses afterwards and you will realise that there is no way that applies to Jesus. Then we have the prophecy of the virgin birth, the only prob is Isa actually says maiden not virgin. The thought of "Virgin" comes from the LXX which was a bad translation. Then one realises that all Isa says is that the messiah will be born to a young women, whats the big deal. I could go on, but i wont.

    The real reason xianity continues with OT is because in the old world tradition was a very important concept. If your going to say or start a new religion you need a respected tradition. Thats why we have pseudographical works, etc.

  • smmcroberts
    smmcroberts

    Yes, Glenster, of course the boastful tales of the Israelites exterminating entire nations of people with few or no casualties to themselves are fictions. Their writings that claim some god ordered them to commit genocide are also fiction. Their descriptions of a vengeful god are also fiction...

    How much more do Christians need before they can admit that the OT is largely a fiction; the god it describes is not the one they want to worship; and they abandon their stance that the OT is "inspired by God"?

    If I keep a journal, and in an early entry I write:

    God is vengeful, jealous, and angry: quick to punish the wrongdoer, and punishes his decendants down to the third or fourth generation. He loves the smell of burning flesh, and will only forgive sins if you slaughter an animal. He also wants us to butcher the children of our enemies without mercy.

    And then 10 years later I write:

    God is love. He overflows with undeserved loving kindness, is quick to forgive, cares about every little sparrow, loves little children, and wants mercy, not sacrifice. He also wants us to love our enemies. And he never changes.

    You might say I "progressed in my faith" or something like that. But if you agreed with my more recent journal entry you couldn't honestly say that my 10 year-old entry was "inspired by God". Why would God inspire me (or anyone) to depict him the opposite of what we now believe him to be? It doesn't make sense. If the more recent journal entry is correct then the old one wasn't correct; it did not depict the same god in any sense. (Personally I'd say neither was correct, but I'm trying to depict the Christian stance here and show its inconsistency.) Why does anyone believe these opposite depictions of their god when they are found in the Bible?

    If Christians want any semblance of consistency they need to dump the OT. They still have problems after that, but I can't see why they would want to keep this albatross around their neck.

  • mP
    mP

    @smmrobers

    If Christians want any semblance of consistency they need to dump the OT. They still have problems after that, but I can't see why they would want to keep this albatross around their neck.

    MP->

    I notice you condemn the OT for genocide, murders, rape and other terrible crimes, however you fail to notice that xianity itself is guity of the same history but on a far larger scale. For the purposes of my commentary it doesnt matter if is fanciful, the facts however remain that xianity repeated the crimes of the OT but on a far large scale that eventually covered the entire globe. Since the beginning xianity has been an instrument of politics , first with the Catholic Church and then with other churches like the C of England. If the jews claimed to have genocided the moabites, amorites these victims can be counted to less than a million or two. On the other hand xianity only spread by pain of the sword. The only reason the Americans for example becamse xianity is because they were massacred until they submitted and accepting Spanish law required conversion to xianity. Religion has always been an fully fledge member of the government. There is no distinction. To conquer and rule the natives, the Spanish had to eliminate the holy leaders of the past so their priests coulld control all heavenly directions and government. Im not meaning to pick on the spsnish because the English, French, Portuguese, Danish and so on all did the same. The Christianization of Europe was the same, just take a look at what xian knights did when they went east to places like Lithuania and that area. If the locals didnt accept the new way they were massacred.

    I really dont get why xians call themselves such a label, when it is nothing to be proud of. Its like calling yourself a nazi, why would you ? They only did evil and i would have thought any sane person would want to distance themselves from such a bloody history as quickly as possible.

  • mP
    mP

    smmroberts:

    CA: It sounds like you didn't read the blog.

    Qcmbr: That Marcion was my kind of guy! At least insofar as he could see that Jehovah was a radically different god than the one Jesus reputedly called "father".

    mP:

    Jesus in Mat 5:17 says the OT laws of Moses are perfect and will remain forever. It would appear you are not reading the full gospels but selectively remembering what you want for your own advantage. Jesus at no stage championed the week, but rather was pro slavery on numerous occassions. In fact Jesus teachings are not grand or moral most are actually about submission to the Roman authorities which is rather strange. Why would Jesus care more about keeping the status quo and pacifying slaves and jews for the Romans and completely ignore the pain and evils of institutions such as slavery ?

    Was he scared of the Romans ? Did he see no wrong in slavery ? There is no good answer, especially when over 1/3 of the populace was a slave.

  • WTWizard
    WTWizard

    Both encourage enslaving the whole human race. The Hebrew Scriptures exalt Israel (and, as anyone that lives in the Middle East or is familiar with the 1973 Energy Crisis and the truth about what caused it knows, they are nothing but troublemakers). Going into lands where people are minding their own business and slaughtering them, forcing your own culture (as wimpy as it is) on the lands is glorious? And no, that is not from some anti-Semite source--that comes right from their own LIE-ble! Jehovah commands the nation to plow right into the Middle East and wipe out the Canaanites for no good reason, making things up such as the Canaanites are not serving Jehovah. Moses and Joshua ought to have been condemned, not praised. Tyrant David, too.

    If the old testament is about conquering innocent people, the new testament is about submission. That is preparing people of the nations to accept enslavement. Turning the other cheek, walking the extra mile, not giving injury for injury, submission to authorities including religions that wish to prepare the masses for enslavement--goes right along with the old testament. And I don't believe the Quran is any better--it too teaches people to submit and be good little slaves.

    I think it's time to dump all three Abrahamic religions and clean up any other religion that they have corrupted, once for all time.

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