Nah ya can't just chuck away the Hebrews Scriptures! As the Bible is now, it goes from 'Once upon a time' in Genesis... to- 'And they all lived happily ever after'... in Revelation. All the blood & guts at the start just makes Jesus look better by contrast too.
It's Time to Dump the Hebrew Scriptures.
by smmcroberts 47 Replies latest watchtower bible
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smmcroberts
mP & WTWizard: I agree with everything you say. My blog is just an attempt at a different strategy. We often assume the argument of believers in order to point out inherent inconsistencies. It doesn't mean we believe the argument.
It's difficult to pull the rug out from under someone's feet without giving them some sort of temporary crutch to cling to in the meantime. Since the full-frontal attack of "The entire Bible is nonsense" falls on deaf ears, then why not try a step-by-step approach:
1. You as a Christian believe Jesus was a perfectly moral individual and taught us about God.
2. You believe that Jesus taught that his God was merciful and loving.
3. The OT clearly shows a vengeful God, and has many stories that we know are false.
4. What if I showed you a way to easily retain your Jesus and NT while letting go of the OT that is an embarrassment to Christianity?
Once we reach that point [having eliminated over half of the Bible], then we can start examining points 1 and 2 as the second phase, starting with something like What Would Jesus Do?
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finallysomepride
eliminate most of the NT as well, maybe concentrate on what jc said and not what OTHERS may have said.
second thoughts just dump the whole lot
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mP
smmroberts:
why not try a step-by-step approach:
1. You as a Christian believe Jesus was a perfectly moral individual and taught us about God.
Your commentary makes no sense. Jesus said the law of Moses was perfect in Mat 5:17. THis law has great moral insights like forcing raped virgins to marry their monsters, eternal slavery, and so on.
Jesus himself was pro slavery, we have multiple accounts where he tells slaves to be good, obedient etc and more. This position is unwinnable. IF you were a slave you would not be so forgiving but you would punch jesus in the nose if you ever had the opportunity and he was lost in a dark alley.
I would hardly call someone who champions the position of the rich, good. A stooge to give false hope and imprison the minds of the weak, so they remain obedient sure, good never.
Imagine if we transplanted that to the American south and Jesus told the blacks to remain good slaves, or Jesus told the concentration camp inmates to be good workers and not cause any trouble.
@sm
2. You believe that Jesus taught that his God was merciful and loving.
mP
What utter lies. The God of the BIble has never done anything good. He is totally selfish, selcentred, always jealous and never kind.
SM
3. The OT clearly shows a vengeful God, and has many stories that we know are false.
mP:
As opposed to the truth in the NT ? THe gospels cant even agree which day jesus died or the names of the apostles. They are a joke and lies themselves.
SM:
4. What if I showed you a way to easily retain your Jesus and NT while letting go of the OT that is an embarrassment to Christianity?
mP:
Xianity is an embarrassment to itself. The NT is also evil, look at Paul telling us women are stupid and shouldnt talk in public and so on. Who needs that crap. In Philemon we have a xian with a slave who has ran away and met Paul. Then Paul tells the slave to return ? WHy on earth is Paul telling the slave to return to the hardship he tried to escape ? You claim Paul and Jesus are good and just and yet they dont condemn the slave owner and make an example of him. They demand some stupidities but when completely ignore true kindness. If i repeated the story of Paul and changed the names you would swear and condemn him and rightly so.
I dont need Mohammad and his mulsim hatred and class divisions. I dont need the same from the Torah or Jesus or Paul. Our society is the kindest its ever been, we dont need to reflect back on the evil from the past.
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steve2
Guys, this is one holy cow of a very bad baby - throw the stinking mess out with the dirty bath water - Old and New Testament - the treasured and patriarchal ramblings of a bunch of men who couldn't quite decide whether to stone or tolerate women or champion or condemn genocide.
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Black Man
Agreed! Great thread!
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smmcroberts
mP,
I don't know why you insist on arguing with me when I already said I agree with you.
Don't you get it? I'm assuming the argument of a Christian. I am not one myself. I don't "claim Paul and Jesus are good and just"; Christians do.
Maybe it works for you, but when I come at believers blasting both barrels and telling them Jesus is immoral they shut down on me. So, I'm trying a more gradual approach: Can they at least see, as a first step, that the OT is immoral nonsense? Okay, then in a future discussion, after they've gotten used to that idea they may be more receptive to hearing the points you are making (and which I have made myself in other articles) regarding the immorality of the NT.
You may not agree with my approach [I'm not sure it will work, myself, but think it's worth a try], but I don't see why you say "it makes no sense."
Peace, bro! We are in agreement; I'm just trying a less forceful approach.
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steve2
So, I'm trying a more gradual approach: Can they at least see, as a first step, that the OT is immoral nonsense?
I'd advise you to treat Bible believers with kid gloves. Go very, very gentle. They offend easily and look for all sorts of reasons/excuses to question your motives. They will lament your critical attitude, perhaps attributing your questioning to your Watchtower background (the wounded hypothesis).
Bible believers need to sort out what sort of person you are rather than directly address your Bible criticism simply because any "Holy" book that is as rampantly obsessed with genocidal violence, blood-soaked sacrifices and antediluvian attitudes towards fellow humans (e.g., women's subservience to men, how to look after slaves, etc), cannot otherwise be defended.
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EndofMysteries
No it's time to read the hebrew scriptures as they were written, not by the faulty english translations of them.