I know, outlaw. Maybe I should go into my room and hide in the corner under a blankie. Or do what I am doing now, keep watching How the Universe works, writing email and having a coffee while chuckling at Sab.
How is creationism DISPROVED?
by sabastious 376 Replies latest jw friends
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rather be in hades
Well, it's essentially the same debate. You see, I make a claim like "God was present before and during the Big Bang" and rationalists will say that they have evidence that proves me wrong, when they actually have logic in accordance with evidence, not raw evidence because we were not there, no one was.
you believe god created the universe yes?
if you believe that, then you must also believe that god created everything in the universe, including the laws that govern the universe (by definition since he made the universe what it is right?).
these laws governing the universe were only discovered and proven true using a set formula for investigation. this method holds true for all branches of academia. your over there disparaging the very logic that kept you from worshipping greek gods, the sun, quetzalcoatl, etc. you're downplaying the very logic and processes that your hero einstein used when putting forth the theory of relativity.
this is the very logic that teaches us about the world around us and prevents us from believing silly tales like:
and this:instead of this:
or this:
instead of this: these myths were disproven by hard data. by observing and collecting data, we know that the earth is not supported on the back of a turtle and we know that the world is a sphere. navigators and astronomers have been charting stars for ages and all that accumulated data unveiled the true nature of our place in the universe as not being at the center of it, but as an insignificant place within it.
this is the universe you say that your god created.
and then you say this...
not raw evidence because we were not there, no one was
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiPe1OiKQuk
When I make a claim "Einstein was a secret deist" rationalists will use his quotes to disprove my claim. But what they are doing is interpreting the quotes using logic and once again they don't have all the facts so they have to lean on facts in accordance with logic and philosophy in order to come to a firm understanding of the validity of unconfirmed theories. However, they do say that upon the discovery of cold hard facts they will change their conclusions. So, if we find a lost video of Einstein claiming to secretly believe in God, then it will go down in the history books. Otherwise history says that Einstein was an agnostic. I am not saying that the history books should be changed.
what difference does it make if einstein believed in god? is that somehow proof god exists? i'd wager he didn't get 100% on all of his exams...
That being said, does history tell us that there was no intelligence present before and during the big bang? Can history be wrong? Yes, it can and often is.
history tells us that the only evidence for god is the made up tales from ancient mythology.
if that is the only fact based evidence that is put forth for everyone to see, and there is no evidence whatsoever
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EntirelyPossible
RBIH, I think one point that needs to be made is that history literally cannot tell us about anything before the invention of writing. Everything before record keeping would be pre-history.
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sabastious
Let's see what you have. Test test test, pants on fire. If you are interested in discussion, stop the lies, stop distorting facts, stop distorting science, stop making up stuff and asserting it as fact, stop flailing about trying to change the rules whenever you get backed into a corner, stop making stuff up about people.
Can't you see I simply do not agree with your assessment of my ideas? Can you not see that I could take what you have said as an insult? If you cannot then it's YOU who are deluded, not me which is how you solve your own dissonance (just call me deluded, you won't be the first and you won't be the last). You seem to want to hold me accountable as if I were a computer who is capable if coming to the exact same conclusions as you. You get what everyone else gets in this life, a perspective. If you impose that perspective, that makes you a dictator. Dictating never got this world anywhere, so I suggest you choose a differnt approach.
-Sab
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rather be in hades
that's true, but there are artifacts and cave paintings. we might not have detailed writings, but that certainly doesn't mean we can't try to peice together what was.
in any case, religions have fallen by the wayside and died when they've proven too ludicrous to bear any longer.
we know about tectonic plates and continental drift. we know how gravity keeps us in orbit. and we've seen the shape of the earth from space, not to mention sea goers not falling over an edge...
we have far more plausible theories for the formation of the planets than gods and goddesses like gaia.
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EntirelyPossible
Can't you see I simply do not agree with your assessment of my ideas? Can you not see that I could take what you have said as an insult? If you cannot then it's YOU who are deluded, not me which is how you solve your own dissonance (just call me deluded, you won't be the first and you won't be the last).
So your argument is that you being wrong, lying, distorting the truth, etc., might insult you and that means I am deluded dictator because I think you are a computer?
Yeah, you sure showed me .... how little sense you are making.
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Finkelstein
He also said "lets not bring that up again" and then commanded me to tell the audience that I am mentally ill. Using shame as penance is a cult personality thing. It's shining through Fink's forum posting because he's actually afraid of the mentally ill and he's lashing out. I forgive him because he's a good guy.
Well thats not really what I was intensionally implying, what I was saying is that you yourself have openly disclosed that your suffering form some form
of mental disorder , and I thought it would be pertinent to inform people to ones who may not know of this.
And I'm not afraid of people who are mentally ill, I have much empathy for these unfortunate folks, including yourself.
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Finkelstein
I'll throw something into the discussion that might enlighten people.
There has now been discovered archaeological evidence of civilizations that existed thousands of
years prior even to the earliest ancient Egyptian civilizations.
To use use a commonly known phrase " Houston we have a problem "
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sabastious
you believe god created the universe yes?
Yes, but that belief must conform to the known laws of physics that we have discovered. Which means that entity cannot simply be an "anything goes" entity (magic), It too must conform to laws of some kind There is no reason to believe that this entity could not establish permanent laws for itself.
if you believe that, then you must also believe that god created everything in the universe, including the laws that govern the universe (by definition since he made the universe what it is right?).
I believe that the Big Bang caused the existence we currently reside within. But that doesn't mean that God micromanaged every tiny little detail, that's why religions speak about spirit creatures as God's helpers. Regardless all of these cycles could be in phases which are called "creative days" in the Bible and "revolutions of heaven" in the I CHING. The first step would be separating the creative process into studyable pieces. This is basically done by sciences like cosmology and physics but these sciences are not giving any credit to the Torah and the I CHING (not to mention things like Astrology) that they deserve. They are just saying, "thanks for all the fish."
these laws governing the universe were only discovered and proven true using a set formula for investigation. this method holds true for all branches of academia. your over there disparaging the very logic that kept you from worshipping greek gods, the sun, quetzalcoatl, etc. you're downplaying the very logic and processes that your hero einstein used when putting forth the theory of relativity.
The scientific method was not created by science, it was refined into the model it is today by scientists. First you have Shaman's and medicine men who are not given the proper credit because they still know and can perform feats that science cannot explain. Many scientists claim that these feats are frauds, but they are not taking into account all known factors because Science has not yet discovered all known factors. These unknown factors could already be interfacing with religionists and spiritualists without detection by Science. This is likely because there is a flaw in the peer review process called lying. A lie is not always hastily exposed and sometimes it's NEVER exposed. The scientists call this "life" which is not a sufficient explanation since they cannot even define life without leaning on philosophy and logic. When they can use ONLY facts to support conclusions things will be much different. In the meantime the "primitive religionists" in South America, Africa, the Middle East and everwhere else cannot be discounted as ignorant zealots. Ignorant zealots exist, but it should never be a default position because no one can explain how they do some of the things they do. Also, zealots keep secrets from westerners by having secret rituals. If scientists had free reign with those rituals they could explain more. However distrust has been built up because so many rationalists use ridicule and hate to drive their points home, which just makes people pull out their swords and fight to the death. Will they ever learn? I don't know, are the willing to die for Science? I don't know.
-Sab
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sabastious
Well thats not really what I was intensionally implying, what I was saying is that you yourself have openly disclosed that your suffering form some form of mental disorder
So you are saying I should have kept that secret? I don't agree, I think being open about it is honest. I like being honest and I don't appreciate being called a liar or told to "tell the class" that I am mentally ill. Stop backtracking you said this:
I think you've got a screw lose Sab. ! oops .... didn't mean to bring that up again Perhaps it might be an appropriate time to reveal this once again to new forum members.
re·veal /ri'vel/
Verb: Make (previously unknown or secret information) known to others. -Sab
and this:
instead of this: 