Analysis of anti-607 BCE Rebuttals

by Ethos 529 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  isaacaustin

  Ethos said: “607 is selected because it the only date of destruction for Jerusalem that will not undermine the prophecied 70 year servitude and exile in Babylon to appease conjectured secular evidence.”

  My reply: 586/7 works just fine regarding the prophecied 70 year servitude of the nations to Babylon. There is no 70 year exile spoken of in the accounts. The ONLY conjectured secular evidence that is not appeased by the 586/7 year as the destruction of Jerusalem is that of the Watchtower, for obvious reasons.
• 

  Jeffro

  Ethos:

  607 is selected because it the only date of destruction for Jerusalem that will not undermine the prophecied 70 year servitude and exile in Babylon to appease conjectured secular evidence.

  This is just a copout employed by uninformed apologists. When I first began researching this topic, I didn't even look at the secular evidence until after I had done a thorough examination of the biblical evidence. I found that 607 is not only unlikely but actually impossible in the face of what the Bible actually says. The conjecture and circumlocutary employed by apologists to try to get around the plain reading of various direct statements in the Bible is tragic.
• 

  Pterist

  Ethos ...you completely ignored the " bag figs" context.........no return from exile for them !

  And who where they ? Zedekiah and those who were destroyed in Jerusalem...NO RETURN FROM EXILE for them....

  Who were promised a return ? Daniel's group and Jechoniah' group Matthew 1:11-12, Jeremiah 29:1-10. AFTER BABYLON's 70 year rule.

  The WBTS bases it's dates on 70 years of exile from the time of the death of Zedekiah , the destruction of Jerusalem, and those who were exiled and destroyed forever. ....No return from exile for them ! They take the secular date 539 + 70 ...which they calculate as 607 BC and sequently that makes Daniels exile 629 BC and Jechoniah's exile 619 BC....This is the source of their error. When we take scripture at Jeremiah 25:1-12 ...the exile would start with Daniel, then Jechoniah, during the 70 years rule of Babylon...539 + 70 = 609 ......Daniel 609 approx, Jechoniah 597 approx. Zedekiah and Jerusalem destruction 587...where the land paid off it sabbaths .....587 - 50 = 537 close enough to 530 ....but NOT close enough to have your whole organisation's existence as its foundation. It's just one of many studies of eschatology , NOT A condition for salvation.
• 

  Pterist

  Sorry 587 - 50 = 537 close enough to 539.
• 

  Jeffro

  Pterist:

  Daniel 609 approx

  Actually Daniel was given as part of a tribute to prevent a siege in early 604 (February, still in Nebuchadnezzar's accession year).

  Compare Daniel 1:1 with Jeremiah 25:1. Daniel doesn't count accession years. Jeremiah does count accession years. Jeremiah 25:1 (mid 605) comes several months before Daniel 1:1 (February 604).
• 

  Jeffro

  Pterist:

  where the land paid off it sabbaths .....587 - 50 = 537

  The land paid off its sabbaths for 49 years (Leviticus 25:8).

  The Jews were in their cities by October 538BCE.

  587 - 49 = 538 = 1st regnal year of Cyrus = year deduced from comparison of Ezra 3:1 with Ezra 3:8

  However, the temple was ruined for 50 years. (Against Apion, Chapter 21)

  Temple reconstruction began in May 537BCE

  587 - 50 = 537 = 2nd regnal year of Cyrus = year explicitly stated by Josephus = year stated in Ezra 3:8
• 

  Pterist

  Jeffro-

  Thanks for the more exact details Jeffro. Most of us would agree while dates and times are very subjective that the sequence of events are not.

  We can see clearly from scripture, that Babylon was given power to rule. We can see his visits to Jerusalem, taking Daniel and his group in the first visit, taking Jechoniah and his group in his second visit and finally in a third visit destroying Jerusalem and Zedekiah's group.

  It is also evident that the first two groups were given promises of a restoration, conversely, the third group under Zedekiah were NOT as Jehovah's reference to them as "Bad Figs" to be destroyed and No Restoration. So any reference to 70 years of exile for this third group to restoration, is meaningless and error. And this is precisely what the WTBS has hung its dating on.

  We all make mistakes and are not without error, however, for the WBTS these dates are their justification and claim to be the ONLY channel, and NOT accepting their dates are grounds for disfellowshiping, as I know too well.

  Thanks again

  Shalom.
• 

  Finkelstein

  One wonders noting that since the number 7 was a recognized sacred number for the ancient Hebrews,

  (7 days of creation, 7 times X, 70 years of captivity ) since the overthrow of power by Babylon via Nebuchadnezzar

  approximated close to 70 years, that a prophecy was established to show how their god (YHWH) had implemented the whole event.

  It should also be honestly recognized that Nebuchadnezzar overthrow other civilizations in the region as well and most likely brought a

  segment of their population back to Babylon as to labor in enslavement, perhaps even to build his noted Hanging Gardens.
• 

  Jeffro

  Pterist:

  Thanks for the more exact details Jeffro. Most of us would agree while dates and times are very subjective that the sequence of events are not.

  JW apologists (e.g. 'scholar') love to claim that the 'secular' history doesn't allow for 'precise' dates. That's why I provided the more specific details. But you're quite correct that the sequence of events is even more important.

  I consider the 'fulfilment' of vague 'prophecies', such as the 'baskets of figs', (which are quite subject to interpretation) to be considerably less important than more direct statements about actual specific events.

  However, regardless of whether such 'prophecies' were really written in advance or they were written after the event, in either case, they do contribute something to the religious significance that people at the time attached to the events.
• 

  jwfacts

  Just to further highlight how pointless the Watchtower's dogmatism on the 70 years is, look at the Watchtower's dismissal of the 70 years when applied to Tyre.

  "Isaiah goes on to prophesy: "It must occur in that day that Tyre must be forgotten seventy years, the same as the days of one king." (Isaiah 23:15a) He says: "These nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years." (Jeremiah 25:8-17, 22, 27) True, the island-city of Tyre is not subject to Babylon for a full 70 years, since the Babylonian Empire falls in 539 B.C.E. Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia's greatest domination-when the Babylonian royal dynasty boasts of having lifted its throne even above "the stars of God." Isaiah's Prophecy- Light For All Mankind 1 p. 253