Faith... and Trust: The Same Things?

by AGuest 452 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  AGuest

  If you really knew anything for sure faith would be redundant.

  Not exactly, C - hoping for something that we have already seen, when our faith has been FULFILLED... is redundant. No further point in EXPECTING (the "assured expectation") the thing: it has arrived/occurred/come to fruition. Knowing, assuredly, that it yet WILL arrive/occur/come to fruition is not redudant, though, because the thing is still "afar off" (well, not always "far", but not yet done/completed).

  Knowing that it WILL, then, based on demonstrative evidence (which you have not seen with your eyes)... is not redundant; it's... faith.

  I hope this helps.

  A slave of Christ,

  SA
• 

  PSacramento

  Cofty said:

  Sorry I'm still puzzled.

  It sounds a lot like a distiction without a difference. Are you sure we are not just playing senantics?

  Who or what tells us to have faith in the supernatural?

  I don't have faith that my car is blue I know its blue.

  Believers often claim to know that god exists and that he speaks to them and they also say they have faith god exists and speaks to them.

  If they know such a thing then they have no need of faith do they?

  I don't think its a case of semantics, I do think that we tend to say one when we mean another.

  Back to the car analogy: We trust our car because we have evidence for that trust, concrete and tangiable evidence.

  Now, if we bought a new car that was just like th eold one, same make and brand but newer, we are putting faith in THAT car based on the trust we have built on the old one.

  There is no reason to trust the new car, but we have faith in it.
• 

  cofty

  So lets take the funadamental question of "does god exist?"

  Believers will assert both that they know god exists and that they have faith that god exists.

  This is a contradiction.
• 

  PSacramento

  It would depend on the believer of course.

  For myself, I was brought up to believe God existed, I never knew if he did and can't really say I had faith he did, although when I thought of God I thought of something/someone to blame for all this crap.

  I know have faith in God but that came after I realized that God existed.

  See, I don't have faith that God exists, I have faith IN God and I know ( or to use what we have been discussing, trust) that God exists.

  How do I know? Personal experience and evidence.

  Of course I understand that those things do not equal PROOF per say, certainly not to anyone else.
• 

  cofty

  But that is to abuse language.

  I know that my car is blue. You do not know god exists in the same sense of the word and yet you float seamlessly between different senses of the word.

  I am not talking about having faith in god's good character or his promises that is synonymous with trust. I am talking about your confidence in the fact of his very existence.

  Believers always want to gloss over that fundamental meaning of faith and move quickly to talk about touchy, feely reasons to trust him.

  If you know god exists in the same sense that I know my car is blue then you have no need of faith in this sense and yet the NT says you "must have faith that he is".
• 

  AGuest

  Some believers, perhaps, C... but not all. Just like not all non-believers say the same things, either. I don't have faith that God exists - I know He does. Based on the evidence given me. But I do have faith I will SEE Him, one day, in FULL... again, because of the evidence given me by His Son: allowing me to see HIM - showing himself plainly to me. And telling me that I would see the Father, as well.

  Since that Son has never lied to me yet, and indeed, gave me demonstrable evidence of the thinged hoped for (which is, in this example, seeing the face of God... and yet LIVING)... by showing me HIS face... I have faith... an "assured expectation"... that I WILL (see the face of God... and be living when I do!... the "thing hoped for")... although I have not seen it YET... nor did I see the Son with my eyes [of flesh].

  I have NO doubt... because of what I HAVE seen... what HAS been told to me... and shown to me. The evidence.

  What YOU might want to [try and] understand is that, for you, these things are very similar to the Creationist just not being able to "fathom" that more than seven 24-hour days were involved in the creation of the physical realm. Such a one just can't wrap their heads around it. You, have the same difficulty wrapping YOUR head around this.

  I mean absolutely NO offense. Just candor.

  A slave of Christ,

  SA
• 

  tec

  Believers will assert both that they know god exists and that they have faith that god exists.

  To ME... this is one and the same. No contradiction.

  Faith is in something unseen... (physically)... but it is not blind.

  You can choose to believe.

  But you have faith because there is no other option according to all you have heard/exeperienced, etc.

  It is like saying I choose to believe in evolution... No, you accept the evidence for it, or you do not. The difference here is that this evidence is physical, and the evidence that some follow to faith is spiritual (which is not the possession of all men). That absolutely doesn't make anyone better or worse than another.

  I think it also depends on the context that one is using the word.

  Peace,

  tammy
• 

  cofty

  I don't have faith that God exists - I know He does.

  I mixed with many people who made the same claims during the years I was a Christian. I totally understood where they were coming from but it is disingenuous.

  Faith bridges the gap where evidence is inadequate. There is a trend among modern christians to eschew faith in the traditional sense of the word. By traditional I mean how it has been used by christians for 2 thousand years. They were honest about the need for faith to help them believe in the unseen and overcome doubt.

  Its as if you want the same solid foundation for your beliefs that comes from science and reason but you get their by pretending really really hard.
• 

  AGuest

  I mixed with many people who made the same claims during the years I was a Christian.

  What people, C? People at your church? Forgive me, but if that's the case, then I understand your skepticism (and I mean no offense to ANYONE - just stating that I understand).

  I totally understood where they were coming from but it is disingenuous.

  And that could have been the case as to you, too. But it is not the case with ALL. YOUR experiences is not all-inclusive nor all-encompassing.

  Faith bridges the gap where evidence is inadequate.

  For some, yes... because of their definition OF "faith." But where it does so... it is not only bridging inadequacies, it itself IS inadequate... and inaccurate. That's why you have the conundrum over this that YOU do... and why what is being shared with you NOW tweaks you so: it isn't inadequate OR inaccurate. It's just that no one ever told YOU of these things before... and you're finding that difficult to handle ("Hey, God! I had faith! Why didn't you tell/show these things to ME??!").

  I would offer that if you truly want to know the answer to that... you have to go back to the One you're demanding an answer FROM. But... you have to get in/come before Him the way HE has arranged for that: through His Son. But... you have KNOW that Son to do so. And... you have to believe that Son exists in order to know him. So... you have to back to Square One: the love you had AT FIRST... but now have lost.

  There is a trend among modern christians to eschew faith in the traditional sense of the word. By traditional I mean how it has been used by christians for 2 thousand years.

  Yeah, well... and look where that's getting them. Not working much for you, is it?

  They were honest about the need for faith to help them believe in the unseen and overcome doubt.

  And they're right... in their knowledge of the NEED for faith. Unfortunately, knowing what one needs... and knowing accurately what that IS... is not always the same thing. I mean, I can know I need "vitamins". But if I don't know what a "vitamin" is... I might find myself overdosing on "minerals."

  Its as if you want the same solid foundation for your beliefs that comes from science and reason but you get their by pretending really really hard.

  That's how you might see it. I don't see us (those who do have faith) trying hard at all. In fact, I think that we DON'T try as hard [as some are used to/want us to] is another thing that upsets you. It's TOO easy... and so CAN'T be. Again, though, as I've stated over and over... and over... it's not rocket science. It really IS A-B-C, 1-2-3. Elementary, at least to start.

  A slave of Christ,

  SA
• 

  cofty

  Of course nobody has met a real christian until they encounter Shelby the humble slave and servant whose feet is washed by Seraphs.