PREMARITAL SEX

by Cj 16 Replies latest social relationships

Cj

Hello..I am Catholic and my fiance was raised as a JW...We are very much in love..We planned on waiting till we were married before we made love but..we didn't.We will be married once we get past our differences.We will never be with anyone else ever again...His parents found out hat we had made love out of wedlock and now they despise me even more than they did before...Anyone know how I should handle this situation?How do I convince them that Idid not "corrupt" their son?{who by the way is in his early thirties!!}.Hod do I get them to believe that it was really love and not lust? =:O
Frenchy

Cj: First of all it is quite possible that you will never "get past [y]our differences". They are considerable.
First of all: JW's take a dim view of their members marrying outside their faith. He will be (if he hasn't already) be 'marked' by the congregation for dating an unbeliever.
Secondly: If your indiscretion comes to the attention of the congregation (and it probably will since the parents already know about it) he will have to face a judicial committee. He will have to demonstrate to the committee that he is repentant of his sin (yes, it is a sin.) or else be disfellowshipped (excommunicated). In all probability part of his demonstration of repentance would include not seeing you again. This varies with individual committees.
How do I convince them that Idid not "corrupt" their son?{who by the way is in his early thirties!!}.Hod do I get them to believe that it was really love and not lust? =:O
First of all, it makes no difference how old he is. In their eyes you will be the one responsible for the error. This is human nature, we protect our children. Next, love is not sex. You may not be able to avoid falling in love with someone but you most certainly can avoid having sex with someone. Face up to it, it WAS lust. According to his age his parents are certainly old enough to know the difference as should he as well.
Your asking for help comes rather late. It's like asking someone how to catch the horse that bolted out of the corral after YOU left the gate open. Damage has been done. TIME alone will tell if your feelings for each other is love or merely lust. Your behavior over TIME will demonstrate this to the parents and everyone else concerned.
You should be talking to your fiance about the situation and just how strong his convictions as a JW are. If he is unwilling to leave his faith then be prepared to be bombarded by members of his congregation to convert you. They will never be satisfied with your situation as long as he is a member and you are not. There will be pressure put upon you by all (surely by him also)until you captiulate.
If there is anything specific that you wish to know please make that known and we will do our best to reply.
Welcome to the board.
waiting

hey Frenchy,
Seem to be following you around this morning.
Secondly: If your indiscretion comes to the attention of the congregation (and it probably will since the parents already know about it) he will have to face a judicial committee. He will have to demonstrate to the committee that he is repentant of his sin (yes, it is a sin.) or else be disfellowshipped (excommunicated). In all probability part of his demonstration of repentance would include not seeing you again. This varies with individual committees.
First of all, that would be Thirdly, because you used "First of all" twice. Need more coffee? I'm probably ahead of you - on my third cup with Kahlua - so much easier on the brain, eh?
(yes, it is a sin.)
That is an opinion not shared by all persons. It is a judgement that she and he have committed wrong - and again - not shared by all persons. It may be a widespread opinion, but cannot be proven. However, you have passed judgement upon her and her love.
If we put it as a sin according to basic Bible doctrine - so be it. But different persons interpret differently, and who can prove who is absolutely right?
Next, love is not sex. You may not be able to avoid falling in love with someone but you most certainly can avoid having sex with someone. Face up to it, it WAS lust. According to his age his parents are certainly old enough to know the difference as should he as well.
Taken in textbook fashion - correct statement. But wasn't there some mocking of Russell & wife on another thread because they did not lustfully consummate their long marriage? Love and sex go hand and hand. We can have either without the other, but love without physical closeness is quite difficult to live with, imo. But to be in love with someone, and to want to experience physical closeness to them - to bond - is a tremendous human urge. To bring this urge down to the baseness of sin and lust - only - is odd.
Anyone who calls it sexual intercouse can't possibly be interested in doing it. You might as well announce you're ready for lunch by proclaiming, "I'd like to do some masticating and enzyme secreting." Allan Sherman
waiting
Frenchy

waiting
Judgment is a relative term. We all make ‘em all the time in one sense of the word. I am not eternally condemning this woman therefore I am not passing judgment upon her in the sense that only Jesus and Jehovah can.
However, she is Catholic by her own admission and here is what her Church teaches about chasity (abstinence from sex):
The Truth and Meaning of Human Sexuality
Pontifical Council for the Family
Guidelines for Education Within the Family
November 21, 1995
Love between a man and woman is achieved when they give themselves totally, each in turn according to their own masculinity and femininity, founding on the marriage covenant that communion of persons where God has willed that human life be conceived, grow and develop. To this married love, and to this love alone, belongs sexual giving, "realized in a truly human way only if it is an integral part of the love by which a man and a woman commit themselves totally to one another until death."24 The Catechism of the Catholic Church recalls: "In marriage the physical intimacy of the spouses becomes a sign and pledge of spiritual communion. Marriage bonds between baptized persons are sanctified by the sacrament."
…
Married people are called to live conjugal chastity; others practise chastity in continence…Educating children for chastity …to help them understand and discover their own vocation to marriage or to consecrated virginity for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven in harmony with and respecting their attitudes and inclinations and the gifts of the Spirit.

Other authorities recognize that sex is legitimate only within the confines of marriage.
From The Holman Bible Dictionary: Several deviations of sexual behavior are condemned in the biblical teachings…These are all declared to be outside of the will of God for man and woman who are called to live together in monogamous fidelity within the covenant of marriage. The only other option is the giftedness of celibacy (Matt. 19:12b; 1 Cor. 7:7).-emphasis mine…It (the Bible) is silent on physical techniques of sexual intercourse, referring only to marital rights or enjoyment (Ex. 21:10), erotic caresses (Song of Sol. 2:6; 7:1-9), fondling (Gen. 26:8), and pleasure in conceiving (Gen. 18:12). Yet these are set forth in the context of the behavior of married couples. Intimate sexual behavior outside of marriage is considered sexual immorality in the biblical perspective. Emphasis mine.

You said: “love without physical closeness is quite difficult to live with, imo. But to be in love with someone, and to want to experience physical closeness to them - to bond - is a tremendous human urge. “ Difficult yes, impossible no. Why does doing the right thing have to be easy? Urges can be suppressed. Never is anything declared ‘right’ because there is no difficulty attached to it. Difficulty in avoiding something is no excuse for not doing so.
To bring this urge down to the baseness of sin and lust - only - is odd.
There is nothing wrong with the urge. It is natural. It is the giving in to it that is the sin. 1 Cor 6:9-11 There are plenty of people who do not give in to that urge notwithstanding the difficulty involved. This is what I taught my children. My daughters were virgins when they married. They have both been married for over ten years and they have only been married once. I think that there is a lot of merit in teaching children chasity and virtue and self control and self respect. I take great pride in the respect that they have earned from their peers in the lifestyle that they pursued. Many of their friends were less virtuous than they and their lives have proved to be far less rewarding than my daughters’. No one will make me believe that tossing self-restraint to the wind produces a better lasting relationship in the end. Years of living has demonstrated quite the opposite to me.
I'm telling this young lady what I told my daughters and my son and what I will tell my grand children when I think it's time. I'm not passing judgment on her as a person, only on her conduct. I never called her wicked or evil or in any way intimated that God had now forever disapproved of her and thereby witholding any and all forgiveness and consequently withold all hope of salvation. I never even said that God was going to punish her for that. These things are outside of my domain. The conduct is not. It is clearly condemned in the Bible. By her professing to be a Catholic she professes recognition of the Sacred Scriptures to be the basis of her faith and the foundation upon which her Church is built. If she does not recognize that authority of her Church or the Bible then it is her responsibiltiy to so state after which I will have absolutely nothing to say to her one way or the other.
-Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
Cj

Frenchy...
I was asking for advice,not condemnation....however you look at it you did pass judgement upon me.I have to say this...did you think that I was unaware of what my own religion had to say about chastity/abstinence? I know that making love outside of marriage is not encouraged.I also know that my fiance and I are in love and that once we settle our religious differences we will be married.We will never be with anyone else..In our hearts we are already man and wife..I,personally, feel that it is far better to make love to the one person you will spend your life with {even out of wedlock} then it is to have random,meaningless sex.It would be nice if we could've been able to say that we waited till we were married legally,but we didn't.We know we should have waited.The past is the past,we can't change it.All we can do is prevent it from happening again until we are legally man and wife...What I was asking for wasn't criticism..I was asking if anyone knew how I should handle the situation.His parents think I am "evil",that I seduced their innocent son.They can't seem to relaize that their son is a man with his own mind,living his own life.We will wed.They will be related to me and I will have to deal with them as they will have to deal with me...
waiting

Hey Cj,
how I should handle this situation?
This is my opinion only. I am a woman - thus a lot of jw's, even women, will not consider it as equal to any male jw's opinion. I am not a man, not having genitals - thus, the weaker vessel, according to jw's doctrinal stand. Not a great place to make the choice to be - remember that.
But it's my opinion, a woman who has raised 3 great, highly imperfect kids from ages 24 - 30. And they are great. And not virgins, and if I remind them of that - they say it's their lives. None are doing drugs, all either in college (actually studying) or in law careers. And good looking too. And we love, having great affection for each other. I very seldom have to resort to the "mother guilt" thing to get them to call.
Back to my opinion: You're in a tough position. But so is life, sooner or later. May I ask, why not "just" marry? Children can ignore their parents if they choose - mine do a fine job when they want. Move away, live your own lives.
Your fiance, if he stays within the cong, will have to go before the elders. If his parents are jw's with true organizational background better go to the elders with his perceived sin, or they are guilty of not keeping the congregation clean, and can be disciplined (punished) also. If your fiance is true organizational background, his conscience has been trained to do likewise. I know, we talk *funny.* I tend to go back to jw words, so hang in there, we all talk like this if jw's. (I've been inactive for almost a year - been in for 30 yrs). If he's disfellowshipped, it will bring pain & reproach to his parents, a loss of reputation to them. They'll feel shame at his actions (even though he's in his 30's).
Being parents, they will feel all this - and look to the one who caused it........not their fine son (even though there's a damned good chance he was at least 50% doing the same thing, eh?) I'm a parent, I know.
How to deal with it? You aren't going to win them over, imho. Move on - deal with your love and your life. Lots of people in love have to go around parents and obstacles - been doing it for generations. You young people, learn from the hippies, live in peace&love&harmony.
Nice to talk with you.
waitng
RedhorseWoman

CJ,
The advice you've been given so far is pretty much right on the mark.
Dealing with JW family does tend to complicate things.
Hopefully, your fiance's parents will be of the mind that they don't want to see action taken against their son, since he is engaged to you, and they may just decide to keep their mouths shut. It happens all the time.
Since your fiance is inactive at the moment, he may also decide not to bring this out to a committee. In any event, it would probably be best to refrain from any additional sexual activity until after the wedding, otherwise, it is VERY likely that the guilt will be too much for your fiance to deal with. A young couple has enough to deal with when they first get married without a big religious hoohaw going on also.
Once you're married, his parents will probably pressure both of you to become active as JW's. As far as their opinion right now goes, I think that eventually they'll get over it....they'll have to. However, I wouldn't put it past them to bring it up every now and then.
Do what you need to to make this as smooth as possible. Be pleasant to his parents, but hold your ground. Once you are married, you can quote scripture to them..."a man will leave his mother and his father and cleave to his wife". You will be in a much better position at that point.
larc

CJ,
I don't know what Frenchy meant about sin, but I know what both reigions think about and that's what you have to deal with. Frankly, I don't think it's a big deal, but that's me.
Now this whole seduction thing, and it's your fault is a crock! It takes two to tango, now doesn't it? This crap about a man just had to do it, because of how a woman was dressed or how she talked seductively is just the biggest BS excuse I ever heard! It is just an excuse for a man to blame a woman for what he did, or for parents to balme you for what their son did. Don't let these people run this guilt trip on you!
larc

Oh and by the way,
Most of these sanctimonious old farts, made a few mistakes in their day!
amicus

Cj,
Frenchy’s first post was directed to you. His second was directed to Waiting. His observation about lust is accurate. Why confuse love with sex? Lust is defined as “an overwhelming desire, or intense sexual desire”. You and your boyfriend felt lust for each other and had sex. Why not just accept that and move on?
More importantly, why would anyone blame you for the actions of another mature adult? If his parents blame you for his behavior they are not being objective. You may never be able to break through this defense mechanism.
I think you have been given good advice here and on the other Forum.
Your comments to Frenchy are WAY out of line.

PREMARITAL SEX

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