Good for YOU, TMS - I am happy to see so many ex-elders and even MS who are working their way to freedom. And I hope you still believe in God after all this. Religion is not God's fault. He is way, way way above all this mess. He/She I mean. And I do mean that, "Let US create them, in OUR image, male and female." We are all in God's image and the flesh is meaningless.
Living Through the Brief Liberalization of Jehovah's Witnesses, Never Recovering
by TMS 74 Replies latest jw friends
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Apognophos
Interesting. This is an era I didn't experience firsthand, and never knew existed. How sad that in the battle between "light" and "dark", the dark won. Who knows, maybe someday there will be a reversal -- or maybe that brief shift in thinking was an ill-fated fluke from the beginning. Maybe I should read the James book, now I'm curious....
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TMS
"Interesting. This is an era I didn't experience firsthand, and never knew existed. How sad that in the battle between "light" and "dark", the dark won. Who knows, maybe someday there will be a reversal -- or maybe that brief shift in thinking was an ill-fated fluke from the beginning. Maybe I should read the James book, now I'm curious...."
Apognophos,
It appears to have been a fluke, likely the result of the influence of Ray Franz, Ed Dunlap, etc. The current mindset with assigned hotel rooms, dumbed down talks and literature, crackdowns on dress, grooming, socialization and independent study would have met resistance back then. I can remember a few of us going to the door with the Bible only, no literature, on occasion, just to show it to be our real source of guidance.
tms
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Eustace
I remember when women were finally accepted as elders and ministerial servants.
I don't think Ray Franz or Ed Dunlap advocated that.
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Eustace
We are all in God's image
I'd agree with that.
and the flesh is meaningless.
You haven't really lived if you think that.
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Eustace
Healthy, but not necessarily Biblical
Not really non-Biblical either, though...
Remember the parable of the master and the talents or Jesus saying that you judge a tree by its fruits?
I think that leaves room for trying out new things from time to time, if it's consonant with the spirit of Christianity.
Rotating elders, to me at least, seems consonant with the spirit of Christianity.
(James 2:1-4) My brothers, YOU are not holding the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, our glory, with acts of favoritism, are YOU? 2 For, if a man with gold rings on his fingers and in splendid clothing enters into a gathering of YOU, but a poor [man] in filthy clothing also enters, 3 yet YOU look with favor upon the one wearing the splendid clothing and say: “You take this seat here in a fine place,” and YOU say to the poor one: “You keep standing,” or: “Take that seat there under my footstool,” 4 YOU have class distinctions among yourselves and YOU have become judges rendering wicked decisions, is that not so?
I know James was talking about material wealth, but I think too much concentration of ecclesiastical power can lead the membes of a congregation into a similar temptation.
It just seems Christian to me to try make it easier for the congregation to avoid that issue. I wasn't around at the time, so I don't know how well rotating BOEs worked, but I can see why Ray Franz thought it was a good idea to try out.
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villagegirl
I meant the flesh is meaningless to God, He sees our inner beings, our spirit, mind, soul, and Jesus said himself that in the resurrection there would be neither male nor female, Jesus words not mine. And I have "lived" I have had two husbands, sex was very important in both marriages, I had given birth to a child, raised her and I have three grandchildren. I am not a nun. I am an artist, I love color and all the beauty in this world, and children and the company of other people and a good glass of wine, I love comedy and travel and good food. What I mean is - there is also another world, a non-material world, a spirit world, God is a Spirit. The bible talks of earthily bodies and spiritual bodies, a higher form of life. Any pleasures we feel are I am sure magnified in that world and if we believe in a possible existance of eternal life, who is to say it will not be in another dimension entirely ? The WT limits everything to such simplistic explanations, dumbs down everything. Science is always discovering what is beyond our limited understanding even on this planet. Its a mystery, we cannot in any of our lifetimes have exact answers or explanations. I used to know it all, like a good JW. Now I know nothing. Thats what real freedom feels like. Letting go of the need to know the outcome.
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cobaltcupcake
A number of Watchtower articles of that era emphasized the individual conscience, making decisions based on principles, taking care of the widow and orphan as part of the "ministry", etc. Many of us eagerly accepted all of this sort of Christian, highminded, individual approach to serving our God. While we could give a number of other initiatives, examples, you get the drift of the organization for a very brief time in its history.
Wow, I remember that so well. We were supposed to be high-minded and give our brothers and sisters room to be individuals. There was a lot of emphasis on the importance of training our consciences. Now you just need to open your mouth and swallow whatever "Mother" spoon feeds you.
Something you left out was the change in understanding of the term "minister." Suddenly, only the appointed brothers were "ministers," and the rest of us were just slobs.
I remember it because when I walked into the KH one Sunday morning in '74 or '75 there was only one other person there, an elder, and he asked me point blank when my ordination date was. I rattled off my baptism date, and he pointed his finger at me and said triumphantly, "Well, obviously someone hasn't read the latest Watchtower!"
That understanding was reversed abruptly a short time later. Then, for a brief time, it seemed that everything we did to present a good image of JWs to the community could be considered our "ministry." Washing your car or mowing your lawn were part of your "ministry." You couldn't count time for that stuff, but it was just as important as going door to door.
I remember the change in understanding about greeting DF'd people. There was a brother who was DF'd. He worked for the city collecting trash. One day I saw him on the street and avoided him. Virtually the next day I was riding the school bus and saw him on his garbage truck. I leaned out the window and hollered a greeting at him. Then, in '81 it changed back to shunning. Say what?
That was a weird period of time.
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return of parakeet
I was lucky the fluctuating lightbulb known as "new light" shone in my favor in the mid-70s.
Receiving medicines derived from blood were considered a matter of conscience then, and I was able to receive a medication that helped ensure the healthy birth of my son.
By the time the bulb dimmed again in the 80s, I was long gone.
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TMS
"Something you left out was the change in understanding of the term "minister." Suddenly, only the appointed brothers were "ministers," and the rest of us were just slobs."
Yes, cobaltcupcake. That shift in the definition of "minister" changed all we had been taught. It briefly put us in line with the clergy of Christendom. The more humane way of dealing with disfellowshipped persons, if I remember correctly, was documented by the way Isrealites treated people of other nations, the Gentiles, which was humane, not cruel and the way the early Christians viewed people of the world.
Interestingly, most of these changes that involved liberalization were well-reasoned and taught. That is why it was difficult to swallow the swinging back of the hardline pendulum which was just policy change without similar so-called scriptural grounding. Sometimes, like the return of the circuit overseer to almighty status was never actually noted. It just happened.
tms