Do you know why God cannot KNOW?

by Terry 81 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Christ Alone

  IF you tell your interrogator that FACT it immediately becomes a NON-fact by virtue of what that knowledge will cause the interrogator to do.

  Sorry, I couldn't stop. :-)

  The knowledge, in this case, is no longer just knowledge. It is knowledge passed on to someone else that can change the event. The knowledge became action in relating it to another. It is not your having KNOWLEDGE of the bomb that will go off. It was by your TELLING the fact that changes what the interrogator will do.

  God having foreknowledge of all events, thoughts, actions, etc does not require that he relates all that He knows.

  There are is no certainty to knowledge UNLESS and UNTIL what is being called "known" actually TAKE PLACE.

  I agree with you, which is why by necessity of this belief, God must exist outside of time where past and future are present to Him. I'm struggling to argue this because I know that you don't give any credit to a belief in God or any type of scripture. (Not being insulting). I'm just speaking philosophically that you are right. A present God bound by time and space could not exercise His foreknowledge. And this is why this has been a question that has been debated for ages.
• 

  Terry

  Unless God is not bound by time and exists outside of the physical universe where past and future are present to Him.

  Aha! May I be allowed to call your attention to cheating? :)

  UNI-verse has meaning and you are changing the meaning. Uni means one. There is only one ALL there is.

  ALL there is=UNIVERSE.

  It is a logical absurdity to assert a special pleading OUTSIDE of "all there is". (You said: outisde)

  None of this is provable, just as God's existence or non existance is ultimately unprovable.

  I'm only pointing out that it is also a form of cheating to describe something as a true fact which is a logical impossibility. If we choose to

  create special pleading by positing at Land of Oz where the streets are gold and then treating it like a really existing city--we cannot be Truthful.

  The word Supernatural means "outside of Nature". The Natural Universe is IT. All there is. "OUTSIDE OF ALL THERE IS---is fictional."

  We shouldn't pretend to all play by the same rules of the natural universe and then---when it suits our purposes--change to an imaginary universe and claim it is TRUE. Why? TRUE has actual meaning in the natural universe. When you switch to "outside the natural universe" you are playing by a different set of rules. We are natural creatures with minds that function in a practical sense. We have knowledge when what we think MATCHES the universe we live in.

  If we assert knowledge that does NOT match the universe we live in----it is no longer knowledge.
• 

  Christ Alone

  Well then why not take it a step further and say that god simply can not prevent atrocities because the uber-god, which exists outside of god's existence outside of our time and space, is preventing him.

  Valid point. And it leads to the question, "Is there anything that God CAN'T do?" Can God create something so heavy that he cannot lift it? Can God lie? Can God stop being God or stop existing? If God "almighty" can do anything as some claim then can he make another God? Can He give Godhood to a man, or angel? Can God sin? Can God learn something new? Can God be wrong?
• 

  elderelite

  ok maybe i'm missing it terry, help me out...

  If i personally have plans to detonate a bomb at noon, plant the bomb and hold the detonator, then press it at noon, how did my knowing make it unfact? I'm sure im missing something easy but this isnt clear to me for some reason....
• 

  Christ Alone

  Aha! May I be allowed to call your attention to cheating? :)

  :-) Sorry... but that is what is necessary for an ultimate SPIRITUAL God. Christianity has always taught that God is a spirit, which by definition excludes Him from the physical. There has always been a specific difference in Christianity between the physical and the spiritual.

  I'm only pointing out that it is also a form of cheating to describe something as a true fact which is a logical impossibility.

  And I'm only pointing out that if we DO believe in a spiritual realm that is separate from the physical, then this is not a logical impossibility. Can the spiritual ever be proven using physical methods? I don't know. So far it doesn't look so good, although quantum theory is changing alot regarding how we view the physical world.
• 

  Terry

  There are is no certainty to knowledge UNLESS and UNTIL what is being called "known" actually TAKE PLACE.

  I agree with you, which is why by necessity of this belief, God must exist outside of time where past and future are present to Him. I'm struggling to argue this because I know that you don't give any credit to a belief in God or any type of scripture. (Not being insulting). I'm just speaking philosophically that you are right. A present God bound by time and space could not exercise His foreknowledge. And this is why this has been a question that has been debated for ages.

  Let's take the last sentence first.

  I'm saying to you there is a reasoning this keeps being debated for ages. It is a logical absurdity. The two opposite sides are debating at cross purposes with a different set of rules! There is no point. One side asserts using alternate reality as a premise!

  Let's now take your next to the last sentence....

  For God to be present (in the real sense) He could NOT exercise foreknowledge. This is identical to saying God does not presently exist. But, you have to honestly consider the implication of your own statement.

  Now for the top part of your comment.

  The only way your "understading" of God's super powers can be "true" is by deliberately going out-of-bounds to score. Doesn't that tell you something?

  My mind and your mind operate usefully in the context in which we exist....namely...the reality of a natural universe. What happens to the balance of our mind when we introduce alternate super-realities?

  I'll tell you what happens. Try playing Texas Hold 'em with you being the only one at the table who gets deuces wild!!

  When you reach for your "winnings" what do you suppose will happen? :))
• 

  Terry

  ok maybe i'm missing it terry, help me out...

  If i personally have plans to detonate a bomb at noon, plant the bomb and hold the detonator, then press it at noon, how did my knowing make it unfact? I'm sure im missing something easy but this isnt clear to me for some reason....

  The problem you are having is in deciding the thought experiment is about THE BOMB. It isn't. It is about what YOU KNOW about the bomb.

  I'd like to call your attention to something you did.

  You took my thought experiment and tampered with it. Did you know that?

  I had a TIMER on the bomb. You made it into a device controlled by hand-held detonator!

  Interesting. Do you know why you did that?

  Anyway...

  The Topic is about KNOWLEDGE and not about bombs:)

  There are certain kinds of knowledge that we cannot possess and neither can God.

  The Buddhist koans try to make you embrace excluded middle thinking by having logically impossible "possibles" inside your head.

  What happens when you try to "hear the sound of one hand clapping?"

  You destroy the rational mechanism of thought!

  In the East they never had Aristotle and Logic. This is why Science was invented by logical minds.

  But, I digress....
• 

  Christ Alone

  I can't do anything but agree with you, Terry. In ONLY a physical reality, God does not make sense. I'm sorry that I have to go to an "alternate reality" to explain God. But that is what is necessary. The Jews and Christians have always taught that God exists in a spiritual realm, not a physical realm. IF there is a nature outside of the physical that can't be measured with the physical, then we have a problem. And hence the inability of me, you, or anyone else to either prove or disprove God. IF God does not exist in our PHYSICAL realm, then we cannot measure Him.

  If I agree that "God created", that requires me to place God outside of a physical reality. It means that He created all things physical. Which means He CANNOT be physical. It's the natural implication of believing "God created".

  If God created time, then God is not a part of time. He IS time. If God can declare things to come as if they already happened, then God is not bound by time. If God is a spirit, then we cannot explain God in physical terms.

  Believe me, I see EXACTLY what you are saying. And I agree that it looks like "cheating". But again, it is what is required by the statement "God created".
• 

  Terry

  And I'm only pointing out that if we DO believe in a spiritual realm that is separate from the physical, then this is not a logical impossibility. Can the spiritual ever be proven using physical methods? I don't know. So far it doesn't look so good, although quantum theory is changing alot regarding how we view the physical world.

  Do you "believe in math"?

  I say it that way to point out that we don't consider math a domain of "belief" for a good reason.

  Things which do not impact reality are the only things we must "believe". Then, by virtue of acting "as though" those things are true---we--by our belief-generated-actions start affecting reality. So, it is US. Not God.

  You insist on saying something I don't think you NEED to say--but--seem to think you need to say.

  "...then, this is not a logical impossibility."

  What causes you to want to wear polka dots with stripes, so to speak? If frogs had wings they wouldn't bump their butt.

  Why insist on making the frog with wings subset of the logical?
• 

  EntirelyPossible

  If God created time, then God is not a part of time. He IS time. If God can declare things to come as if they already happened, then God is not bound by time. If God is a spirit, then we cannot explain God in physical terms.

  Nothing in the Bible says God created time, just the heavens and earth. If God created time, when did he find the time to do it? Nothing could have been done without some passage of time. There would be no past, present or future. Nothing.