Do you know why God cannot KNOW?

by Terry 81 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Terry
    Terry

    Believe me, I see EXACTLY what you are saying. And I agree that it looks like "cheating". But again, it is what is required by the statement "God created".

    Each of your sentences start with a very necessary provisional IF.

    That makes it clear.

    What we WANT to be true....we can insist IS true.

    But, if what we want to be true must also be LOGICAL.....we have a problem that must be preceded by provisional IF's.

    Let me demonstrate a few interesting things about our "understanding" of God.

    For God to be a Creator He must, first, create. Right?

    What about the eternity BEFORE He first created? Creation took place at a point--BEFORE WHICH---there was no creation.

    God, at that preceding point, could NOT be a Creator.

    For God to be All-Knowing there would have to be "something" to know.

    Before creation----there wasn't any....THING. Therefore, logically....God could not KNOW because there was nothing TO KNOW.

    See the problem with clear contexts and definitions? They amplify absurdity by forcing them out into the open.

  • Christ Alone
    Christ Alone

    Let me interrupt this quickly by saying, I really enjoy your perspective Terry. Please don't think that I'm trying to be dishonest in my argument. I love this line of thinking.

    ahem...back to things.

    You said: Then, by virtue of acting "as though" those things are true---we-- by our belief-generated-actions start affecting reality. So, it is US. Not God.

    Agreed, and hence the whole "Law of Attraction" movement. Sort of...er...not at all.

    Back to topic, I suppose that unless or until a person actually sees prophecy being fulfilled before their eyes, many will not believe. And even if it DID happen, I think that many would continue to either chalk it up to a coinsidence, or have a more "rational" explanation of how to explain it in a physical rather than spiritual reality.

    This is a poor example, but I once used the example of a theoretical "rapture" taking place. Millions of people suddenly disappear as some believe the Bible teaches. I think that most would come up with an explanation that would sound more "rational" to them. They would explain it away as aliens, governmental technology, etc. And all the explanations would necessitate a physical explanation rather than a spiritual one. Even that sort of "proof" would not be enough to convince people of a spiritual reality outside of a physical one.

    I'm not sure where I'm going with this... my mind is DEFINITELY not in top shape today. Feeling kinda fuzzy.

  • Christ Alone
    Christ Alone

    God could not KNOW because there was nothing TO KNOW.

    But are thoughts PHYSICAL? Can the mind be explained merely in physical terms related to the body? What is thought? What makes me self aware? We can try to explain it in terms of biological function, but we really don't know where or even what the MIND is. We can explain it as a series of electrical impulses. But what makes these thoughts? There is a major mind-body problem. And its a question that is considered in quantum theory and has set off a whole trend of pseudo-science regarding it. But the question still remains.

    In many cultures the mind is viewed as a separate entity from the body, and is a spiritual function rather than physical.

    So what existed before God created? What are thoughts in terms of God's thoughts? What did God do for an eternity before He created. Can't tell you. I can't understand eternity as it relates to science OR God. For example, what was before the singularity that caused the big bang? Is the universe eternal and have a history of eternal big bangs previous to the most recent? I have no idea. But if it IS eternal, then I can't understand it. How did something come from nothing? No one can explain that. And the big bang requires it. Something had to have come from nothing at some point unless the universe is eternal, in which case that opens up even more philosophical questions.

  • EntirelyPossible
    EntirelyPossible

    But are thoughts PHYSICAL?

    Yes.

  • Christ Alone
    Christ Alone

    Yes.

    Read some QM and prove it.

  • EntirelyPossible
    EntirelyPossible

    Read some QM and prove it.

    Done! Thought is indeed physical.

  • Terry
    Terry

    Oh dear!

    I think many (if not most) arguments are caused by inserting impossibles in the context of "possible" and then fighting over it.

    Clear definitions are essential.

    We really fall in a hole in religious arguments because WORDS have rubber meanings in so-called "spiritual" contexts.

    Words only serve communication when both sides of that communication have identical understanding of meanings.

    Clearly defined words in a bible context are just silly putty!

    And this is ON PURPOSE!

    Another way of saying it: You can't be playing by checker rules when you're in a chess game!

    Let's take the word TIME as an example.

    We all think we "know" what we mean when we talk about TIME. But, do we?

    I think of time as the distance between events. Without actual events there is nothing to measure using time.

    There also has to be a PLACE where time ......is used to measure distance between events.

    Without an actually existing place for events....well, it is pointless to even bring up the subject of time!

    I've already mentioned how silly it is to think of Eternity as a reality.

    It cannot take place! Eternity cannot be an event.

    The word "eternity" or "eternal" is just a shorthand way of talking about something outside of our capacity for measurement.

    AN ILLUSTRATION

    Let's take a simple---very simple---adding and subtracting problem. Let's word the problem as a riddle.

    The first time most people hear this riddle (called the Missing Dollar riddle) they are truly stopped in their tracks.

    The reason for it has to do with PROCEDURE. Something is a problem when we don't have the proper PROCEDURE for solving it.

    This, I assert, is the same problem with RELIGIOUS DEBATE.

    Each side is using a different set of procedures! One side is using real language with real definitions and the other side is just making up nonsense and calling it "spiritual" so they can get away with cheating.

    Three guests check into a hotel room. The clerk says the bill is $30, so each guest pays $10. Later the clerk realizes the bill should only be $25. To rectify this, he gives the bellhop $5 to return to the guests. On the way to the room, the bellhop realizes that he cannot divide the money equally. As the guests didn't know the total of the revised bill, the bellhop decides to just give each guest $1 and keep $2 for himself.

    Now that each of the guests has been given $1 back, each has paid $9, bringing the total paid to $27. The bellhop has $2. If the guests originally handed over $30, what happened to the remaining $1?

  • EntirelyPossible
    EntirelyPossible

    Let's take a simple---very simple---adding and subtracting problem. Let's word the problem as a riddle.

    The dollar is lost because you are starting to count from different places ;)

  • Terry
    Terry

    Back to topic, I suppose that unless or until a person actually sees prophecy being fulfilled before their eyes, many will not believe. And even if it DID happen, I think that many would continue to either chalk it up to a coinsidence, or have a more "rational" explanation of how to explain it in a physical rather than spiritual reality.

    Well, it is very easy to win an argument when you speak FOR the other person's point of view :)

    What is Prophecy?

    It certainly isn't what many people pretend that it is.

    For Example: NOSTRADAMUS is said to have been a famous PROPHET.

    Nostradamus made up little nonsense quatrains and sold them to people with more money than brains.

    The majority of people who paid for these "prophesies" complained bitterly that they didn't even understand them!

    Yet, because they were so vague they were open to "reading in" interpretations. That is how they could "come true".

    A Prophecy has to be understood because it is clearly stated in words that are not subject to various "possible" interpretations.

    Vague statements are worthless.

    Most importantly, it is absolutely necessary to know WHEN the supposed "prophecy" was first uttered and written down.

    Why?

    Because, a fake prophecy can be written down AFTER it happened and then back-dated!

    Daniel's prophecies are about a time and place--but--written about AFTER that period. Fake!

    Jehovah's Witnesses are embarassingly dishonest about using the word with QUOTATION MARKS when referring to themselves.

    Who are these modern day "prophets"? (See the quotes around prophets?)

    Do you know what putting quotes around a word really is used for?

    Quotation marks can also be used to indicate a different meaning of a word or phrase than the one typically associated with it and are often used to express irony.

    to explain it in a physical rather than spiritual reality.

    I cry foul! When you put those two words together it very deceptive to communication! Reality is one thing: WHAT ACTUALLY EXISTS. By putting the weasel word--spiritual--next to it you succeed in modifying a glass of pure drinking water with a drop of poison!

    But, I'm not blaming you for a crime against humanity:) Only against reality.

    What if I spoke about a square circle?

  • Terry

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