Believers, do you believe in evolution?

by everchangingworld 159 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  NewChapter

  If you would like a recommendation of a good theology book, since that is what we are discussing when talking about the fall, angels and so forth, I can give you a few.

  No. I don't want to read a book on theology. You have made some statements. I'm interested in how you, not a book, would answer some questions. Do you own these statements, or are you mimicking? Have you thought about them in detail? I don't want cut and pastes either. Are you willing to back up what you have said, with much certainty, or do you want to stop the discussion?
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  PSacramento

  No. I don't want to read a book on theology. You have made some statements. I'm interested in how you, not a book, would answer some questions. Do you own these statements, or are you mimicking? Have you thought about them in detail? I don't want cut and pastes either. Are you willing to back up what you have said, with much certainty, or do you want to stop the discussion?

  I don't want to derail a thead on evolution with discussion on theology, no.

  You want me to back up theological opinion with non-theological discussion?
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  NewChapter

  It's not off-topic. We are discussing believers that accept evolution. I asked when, in our history, did humans receive a soul or spirit---you answered. Then you talked about a fall. As it relates to Evolution, how did this fall occur? Had we reached some point of perfection, through evolution, and then 'fall', because once such a concept is removed from a compact story in a garden, involving two humans, it becomes dodgy to define such a fall. Since you think that our flesh is corrupted in some sort of way, this definitely has an impact on our evolution. Since you have said that angels may have evolved, and the humans may also be evolving into something higher (?) that also is a statement of evolution----so it is dead on topic.

  This doesn't need to be complicated. How did this fall happen? Just a few words on what you believe. Did it happen immediately after spirits were handed out---or did it come later after human populations immigrated and spread? And if so, did this take place over time? Or one day, did all the humans on earth just quit living up to potential? Take this story outside of the garden and spread it around the earth, and tell me how that worked.

  You state things with such sureness, but when I ask for details, you keep slipping away. It's okay to say you simply accept it without really working out the details. I think that is a bad idea, but if you are trying to state the case, then it is fair to allow me to ask for the details. If you don't have them, then the argument crashes, but that's not really a problem, because you are still free to accept it. I just think that people who may be listening should understand that it it totally acceptable to ask for specifics.
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  PSacramento

  You state things with such sureness, but when I ask for details, you keep slipping away. It's okay to say you simply accept it without really working out the details. I think that is a bad idea, but if you are trying to state the case, then it is fair to allow me to ask for the details. If you don't have them, then the argument crashes, but that's not really a problem, because you are still free to accept it. I just think that people who may be listening should understand that it it totally acceptable to ask for specifics.

  Sureness? really? thanks.

  As I always state, I am voicing my opinion and it is base don the reasech and studies I have done, some echo orthodoxy and some don't. Which I suspect has been the case with beleivers from the very beginning.

  Details? well, I can cite sources for the othodox views but when it comes to my personal feelings onm a matter, I am afraid you are stuck with that.

  I really don't want to derail the thread but sure I can try to answer specific questions as best I can.

  Just realize that many of those questions you ask are NOT simple, not short replies nor are they soemthing I cna just "post" random views on, but are at the heart of some theological debates that have gone on for centuries.
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  NewChapter

  Then opinion. Okay. Other than theological arguments, which I'm not interested in, and to keep it close to topic, is there scientific evidence or something that can be tested?
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  Christ Alone

  is there scientific evidence or something that can be tested?

  And here is where the problem starts. If there is a dimension separate from our own, the it is untestable using physical methods. The unseen spiritual realm cannot be tested while in the seen physical realm.

  By its very definition, the supernatural cannot generally be tested. It's very nature is outside of nature.
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  NewChapter

  And here is where the problem starts. If there is a dimension separate from our own, the it is untestable using physical methods. The unseen spiritual realm cannot be tested while in the seen physical realm.

  By its very definition, the supernatural cannot generally be tested. It's very nature is outside of nature.

  And yet so many seem to know so much about this realm. It seems to be based on personal ideas, ideas that others discuss, and some writings that also can't be tested. Yet it is taught as fact, while issues are made over the scientific method and how science had been wrong at times. I suppose theology never fails though, because who can test it?
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  ziddina

  This video probably doesn't really go with the topic, but I thought it was a pretty good animation - and decent music, too...

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoL_142abXU
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  Christ Alone

  And yet so many seem to know so much about this realm.

  I spoke about this on another thread. Many pretend to know so much about it, but no one really does. It's not based on ideas, but on the Bible. That's my main source, whether you agree with it or not. I can't go beyond what the Bible says about the "spirit" or what is "spirituality". So I can't answer cofty's questions of "Does Jesus fart?" I hope I'm known for someone who can say "I don't know" if I don't. It's a rare thing. Believers and non-believers claim to KNOW far more than they do.
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  sizemik

  Believers and non-believers claim to KNOW far more than they do. . . . CA

  An unfair generalisation IMO.

  I don't often see "unbelievers" (I assume this as generic for Atheist/Agnostic) attempting to promote a world view based on subjective hearsay, an inner voice, intuition, ancient religious beliefs etc., claiming that they just "KNOW" these things, and placing themselves in an unchallengeable position. Indeed, the very use of the term "unbeliever" suggests they claim to KNOW a lot less . . . and what they do know is usually based on reliable and testable evidence.

  The two groups are not diametrically opposed, as some seem to have (very simplistically) taken the view here. They are not staring each other down through the same window . . . but looking through entirely different windows. It's simply another leap of faith to assume "unbelievers" have an opposite view or "belief" . . . they simply subject belief to the same scrutiny as everything else. A scrutiny which is welcomed in the scientific community, and seen as a "merciless, snide, scathing and evil attack on faith" in the religious community. The difference, and consequent reactions, have been well illustrated over countless threads on this forum alone.

  If I present a personal idea here, I expect it to be rigorously scrutinised. In fact, that is the main purpose for expressing it, to reveal it's flaws. I don't claim to KNOW it, or believe it, only to present it as a possibility for consideration. Expressing belief here, is really like delivering a sermon in a lecture theatre. If you can't endure question time without feeling "under attack" . . . it's better for personal belief to remain just that . . . personal.

  A wise man can learn more from a foolish question . . . than a fool can learn from a wise answer.