by toweragent 88 Replies latest jw experiences
It seems foolish to start bickering about the Trinity, etc., when the OP specifically stated that he had no doubts about these things. When someone comes here expressing doubts about the Org itself, how helpful is it to try pulling them in different directions over issues they aren't ready to consider?
IMHO it would seem better to stick to what we pretty much all agree on here: that the WT is not being used by Jehovah to spread his message.
@dubR: I said that I wasn't in complete agreement with the op but saw no reason to attack. I choose to respect where he is.
Numbers 23:19 God is not a man that he should lie; neither the son of a man that he should repent.
This statement was made in the OT and not while Christ was walking the Earth.
Exodus 32:14 And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
1 Samuel 15:11, 35 It repenteth me [God] that I have set up Saul to be king. (v.11) The Lord repented that he had made Saul king over Israel. (v.35)
If you're attempting to suggest that these are contradictions to the former, I'd have to ask you how many foreign languages you know. The WT can play games with "Let's look at this specific word and over analyze it's origin with a limited set of sources that agree with us" but out here in the real world, it's understood that the best that can be offered at translation is an educated attempt and that knowledge is evolutionary (the world used to be flat, remember?). It's hard enough to perfectly translate modern languages with considerations of cultures and locales. To get a feel for this - try a Latin class. We're talking about an ancient language and you want to kill the message because of what may be a translational challenge?
You appear to have chosen to reject all - which is your choice. I don't care. Believe what you want.
For others, Jesus was God before He was made "man". He was a man while He walked the Earth. I can't say what his private parts did before He got here or what His bathroom requirements were at ascension... If I die before you and am more than dust, hopefully I will remember to try to get a message to you.
For me, subscribing to Phillipians 2:6-8, I believe that he went through some semblance of a transformation to become man so I'd correlatively assume that there was a transformation at ascension and that Jesus is not a physical human sitting at the right hand of God. Heck, has anyone considered He may not even be on the literal right? *sigh*
Many read the non-NWT scriptures at Isaiah 48:16, Isaiah 61:1, Malachi 3:1, Zechariah 12:10, Amos 4:11 compared with Genesis 19:24 and all with respect to Phillipians 2:6-8 differently than the JWs. Given your stance, you probably don't need to see those scriptures at all. I'm okay with that too.
@NeverKnew You say "This statement was made in the OT and not while Christ was walking the Earth." Those contradicting scriptures about God NEVER having to repent a then repenting, has NOTHING to do with Jesus. Those are OT scriptures and they say two totally different things about God. Its absolutely irrelevant, its still an obvious contradiction, and deep down I'm sure you know it.
Then you try to say I an trying to make the scriptures in 1 Samuel contradict each other. No I was just stating more contradictions from the stance the bible takes on God NEVER having to repent. Writing a paragraph about foreign languages and telling me to take a Latin class and saying how WT try to twist things was an embarrassing attempt to ignore the contradiction to begin with. Insulting me about my lack of foreign languages will still show God NEVER repents and God repeatedly repenting to be a contradiction in the OT. Your rebuttals were elementary at best and reminded me of JWs rebuttals on subjects when they are wrong.
@smmcroberts You post what you want. I post what I want. Simple
@unstopableravens and @DubR, it might be best to take this kind of debate on a new thread. The issue here is a person trying to sort our their beliefs on the WT. Had I read your back and forth a year ago when I started having my own crisis of faith, I would have been more confused and probably would have hoped even more that the WT was right. Just saying.
Oh... okay.. thsnks, but like you, I'm good!
Have a great night!
@I Want to Believe: That is the direction I'm leaning towards right now...
@Satanus: That is an EXCELLENT point that I've never thought of before. Definitely something to think about!
@wannabefree: I wish you could tell me that too! Lol, Thank you for the wishes.
@Minimus: I agree with your statement about the elders acting Pharisaic. I never noticed it much until about a year ago. I know that they do NOT act like loving Christians all the time. I am trying to get out while I have a life and a future for me and my wife. I will do my best to "hang in there"! It is a GREAT thing that you are here! Thank you Minimus.
@Lozhasleft: That was very moving to read. I can't imagine losing what you have lost. I'm glad to hear that you've rebuilt. I think going gently with my own wife is the wisest course for me. Good advice and a good post. Thank you for the welcome Loz.
@unstopableravens: Ok, I'm willing to PM. I'm open to hear all viewpoints and ideas, even ones I don't agree with. It's hard to know where my journey will take me.
@NewChapter: Thank you for your post! I think that is the best advice I've read so far. Knowing that it is going to take time KILLS me because I tend to be impatient and want all the answers right away! But you're right, I do need to take time with any decisions I make because I do have a lot to lose. Slow and steady wins the race, I guess.
@sir82: I definitely agree that your second description fits the org better. That's what hard to come to realize when you're constantly told otherwise. Thank you for your compelling observation.
@jgnat: Thank you for the advice on how to approach my wife. That is what makes me most nervous right now.
@man oh man: That's what I'm afraid of! And thanks for the website and videos, I've never heard of it before.
@bigmac: Thank you for the kind words. It's nice to read a post like yours and to know I'm welcome here. 4 years of being scared to post here does not wear off overnight! Thanks again.
@ziddina: Factual evidence is what prompted it the first time...I guess the love in my old cong was enough for me to cover that up or look over it. But the factual evidence COMBINED with the lack of love was too much for me to take. I guess that's what prompted the second "awakening", if you will. Nice observation, I never noticed that about my situation. I'm already learning more about myself by being here! Nice!
@Giordano: Some interesting statistics that I didn't know. Thank you for the welcome!
@everchangingworld: Thank you, I will take a look at that book. Should be interesting. And thank you for addressing the trinity/bible banter. I agree. And not only is it not on my mind at this point in time...but it's also very childish! I enjoy respectful debate with references to back up claims.
@DesirousOfChange: Yes! If that's the conclusion I reach, I want to be out will I'm still young and not waste my wife's or my own life slaving away for an unchristian organization.
@Ding: I guess I still didn't realize the import of 1914 on the organization. But I have thought of what they were teaching as "truth" back when they received their "appointment" and it didn't seem to add up. Thank you for the welcome and the book reference! And thank you for the advice about my wife, That is what I'm most concerned about right now. I love her very much and you have some really good practical points to use. I like that. Thanks!
@smmcroberts: That is what I am most afraid of...not knowing 100% what the right answers are. I'm afraid of looking back and felling regret. "Should I have stayed?" Should I have left all those years ago?" That's why I've started my little journey. And btw...those 5 step points are very interesting to consider. Thank you for taking the time to write them. Also thank you for addressing the banter of the trinity. It's all pointless to me at this time. I'm not ready to jump to considering that just yet! Just trying to learn as much as I can right now about my current issues. Thank you sir!
@Captain Obvious: Yes I agree! I don't want to bombard her and turn her off of ever considering these things! Thanks for the personal experience. I've come to the realization that I will have to do most of my research on my own. That's hard for me because I tend to be impatient! But I guess I don't have a choice. I may PM you to ask you about how you approached your wife more discreetly. Definitely something I'm interested in hearing about.
@Yan Bibiyan: Nice point! Never thought of it quite like that before!
@perfect1: Thank you for the welcome. It was scary to just LOOK at this site for a long long time...posting something here was a whole different animal!
@Black Sheep: Some nice advice. Thank you for giving something to consider regarding the refund comment. In the long run, you're absolutely right.
@turtleturtle: That seems to be the reoccurring theme of everyone's posts. I haven't heard better advice yet!
@flipper: I'm slowly broadening my perspective. I'm totally afraid to look at the world without Bible goggles, so to speak. But who knows where my journey will take me! I've already enjoyed looking at the world without Watchtower goggles! Lol
@tec: Ah yes, nice point! Thank you!
@smiddy: Thank you for the welcome!
@Aussie Oz: I considered myself an apologist for the 4 years I knew about this stuff but still stuck it out in the org. I no longer consider myself an apologist...in fact, I don't know what I consider myself at this point. But at any rate, thank you for the kind words and advice.
@goldensky: thank you SO VERY MUCH for such kind words! And your story is a nice example. It gives me hope for myself and my wife!
@Hortensia: I do love my wife. Very much! I can't imagine going through this awakening with out her...but I just have to get her to wake up as well. Some good advice there Hortensia!
@SkyGreen: Thank you for the welcome!
@00DAD: double-oh-dad? As in 007? Nice! Nice point. Wanting it to be true won't make it true...so I guess I'd better get to work on my journey. Thank you for the welcome!
@Jazzbo: Nice point Jazz.
@Balaamsass: Thank you for the welcome and the advice on my wife. 54? Wow I can't imagine doing something like this at that point in my life! Much respect Balaamsass!
@nochoice: I feel like that's the boat I'm in right now. But you're right... there are just too many things to try and justify. Thanks for the welcome!
@Sola Scriptura: That's an interesting take on things that I'd never considered before...
@leavingwt: Yes that book has been recommended and I plan to give it a read. Thank you for the welcome and for the reference.
@Vidiot: Long posts seem to be a reoccurring thing with me! Look! I've done it again!
@John_Mann: Thank you for the welcome!
@catleave: That is one of the books I plan to read up on. Thanks for the reference.
@AnnOMaly: I guess I'd never thought of it from that perspective before. I do plan to visit Mr. Cameron's book. It's nice to be mentally free. Now that hard part is everybody around me! Is there a book on that? Haha... Thank you for the post!
@dazed but not confused: That's really good advice for me to use, especially with my wife. I definitely don't want to push her away...but to get her to think. I think she's so well trained to NOT THINK, so it will be tuff. Good luck with your own wife man! I may PM you for advice sometime!
@mouthy: mouthy! So awesome to see your post on my thread! I've enjoyed reading your comments during the time I've spent here! Thank you.
@DubR: That may very well be the case. And it may be the conclusion I reach someday. But for right now I'm just figuring out that the Watchtower isn't all it's cracked up to be. I'm not at all ready to abandon the whole bible so suddenly! I may someday...for right now, it will stay with me in my journey. I agree with smmcroberts, I'm not at all ready for that discussion yet, that's why my original post stated that I do not consider it an issue at this point. Btw, when you say "your book of God is retarded.", that doesn't open my mind up to conversation. Thanks for the input though.
@NeverKnew: That the VERY BEST input I've heard all day! And there has been A LOT of good advice here on this thread! That's exactly what I intend to do! But don't get dragged down to DubR's debate.
@rebel8: Ha! Thank you! I will do my best to use my brain. I'm trying to learning all sorts of different viewpoints now.
Thank you to everybody who took the time to respond and give me some great advice as well as some great references to look at. I think I'll just take it all in and start my journey. I don't know where it will take me...or how I will get there...but it's nice to know there is a great place to come for support.
There certainly is ALOT to think about and digest. It STILL seems all surreal to me. Never thought I would be on a site like this...let alone POSTING on a site like this!
It will be nice to look at other peoples threads and try to contribute if I can. Or relate any interesting stories. I've got a few...but it's gonna take a while to get the courage to post them! Guess I'm just a scardy cat! Plus, trying to keep everything anonymous is something I need to figure out.
Take care everyone. Best wishes and thanks again to everyone who read or posted.
no problem bud, i will pm you tonight or tomorow sorry if we went off on a discussion on your thread.
All, I have realised I still have much pinned up anger in me to be on this website or to contribute to it. Bottom line, I care too much for people and I see the pain one book has brought to millions of lives. If someone shared with me half of the scriptures I posted on this thread when I was younger I would have woke up and still have my family now. So long everyone
To: toweragent
@Sola Scriptura: That's an interesting take on things that I'd never considered before...
Take care my brother; PM me if you ever want to talk about it.
Agape,
---
“Is it not an exaggeration to say that all of
us are in danger of being deceived with regard
to our religious beliefs?” -The Watchtower September 1, 2010 page 11
