I see blood
Should We Worship Jesus?
by Perry 229 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Terry
As a test of the Topic question we may well ask: "What bad thing ever happened in scripture to somebody who worshipped Jesus?"
Put another way, how could it ever be proved that worshipping Jesus is hateful to Jehovah?
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Pterist
Cofty **** So you falsely accuse me of making personal attacks then you indulge in them - hypocrite****
This is what I said ..."""" Do you think by putting down people makes you more credible and superior, or does it make you feel better about yourself. Usually personal attacks occur when insecurity is revealed.""""
Put downs.......NOT attacks
Usually personal attacks occur when insecurity is revealed.?.. This is a was a dispassionate and accurate statement
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Pterist
Designs *** PT- No I no longer believe in a personal creator.****
So your questions are disingenuous ?
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Vanderhoven7
For God ... hath committed all judgment unto the Son: THAT ALL MEN SHOULD HONOR THE SON
EVEN AS THEY HONOR THE FATHER. He that honoureth not the Son, honoureth not the Father which
hath sent Him. Jn.5:22,23
Witnesses argue that Jesus Christ is not worthy of the unqualified or unlimited worship due the Father. But by denying the Son reverent homage or service paid to God they can only ascribe to Him instead, recognition, honor, respect given to men.
Relative honor to God through an angel was
reproved in these words: "Be careful! Do not
do that!...Worship God."
Revelation 19:10; 22:8, 9, NWT)
'Let God Be True', 1952 edition p. 151
The distinctions Witnesses make in worship due the Father and Son are totally extra-biblical and not in keeping with Apostolic teaching and practice.
What is it that distinguishes that Christ is not to be genuinely worshiped as the Father is worshipped?
Language of Scripture:
"Proskyneo" is consistently translated as "worship" in the King James. It is the major Greek word translated as worship. "Proskyneo" is applied 21 times to the Father and 17 times to the Son. The only fair conclusion we can come to here is that the language of scripture does not distinguish that Christ is not to be genuinely worshiped as the Father is worshiped.
Scriptural Example:
There is not one example of the disciples or anyone else in scripture limiting their expression of worship of Christ. Jesus never rebuked the disciple for improper proskyneo of Himself. Only the self proclaimed religious authorities objected to Jesus being honored as the Father was honored. They proclaimed vigorously, saying such things as, "You make yourself equal with God" and "Only God can forgive sins" etc. To them, no man should claim the attributes or prerogatives of God. So not only does scriptural language, but also scriptural example fails to distinguish that Christ is not to be genuinely worshiped.
Scriptural Instruction:
There are no proscriptive instructions defining relative proskyneo of Christ, nor are there restrictive commandments, limiting the proskyneo of the Son. So the alleged distinction in meaning of proskyneo of Father and Son is not clarified by a distinction in scriptural terminology or by scriptural example or by scriptural commandment either prescriptive or restrictive. All restrictions proposed by any religious authority are really extra-biblical (i.e. the commandments of men). The truth is that ALL MEN SHOULD HONOR THE SON EVEN AS THEY HONOR THE FATHER (Jn.5:22, 23). Christians can and the disciples could, never honor Jesus too highly.
Witnesses argue that Matthew 4:10 excludes unqualified worship of the Son. "You shall worship the Lord your God and him ONLY shall you serve". (Matt 4:10) That is simply not true. The exclusive element of this instruction rests on the last phrase and yet we are called to be servants of Christ. If we substitute the word "Honor" for worship in Matthew 4:10, so that it read "You shall honor the Lord your God and him only shall you serve", would the verse inform Christians that they should not give identical honor to the Son?
Form and Content:
"...to worship Christ in any form cannot be wrong."
(W.T. March 1880. p.83)
Can the alleged distinction in meaning of 'proskyneo' when applied to the Son be established by the form or content of worship displayed by the disciples/apostles? Do not the following constitute elements of proskyneo in terms of form and content that can legitimately be a part of the proskyneo rendered to the Son:
a. bowing the knee to Jesus while confessing Him as Lord? Phil.2:9-11
b. prostrating oneself completely before Jesus? Rev.5:8
c. fellowship or commune with Jesus, sharing our personal
aspirations and hopes? I Jn.1:3
d. coming to Jesus for relief of personal burdens and
cares? Mat. 11:28
e. calling on the name of Jesus, addressing Him personally
as Lord? Acts 9:14, I Cor.1:2
f. praying personally to Jesus, petitioning Him for self
and others? Acts 7:59-60 Jn.14:14
g. glorifying Jesus by praise? Ps.50:23 Jn.16:14, Mat.21:14-16
h. honoring Jesus verbally by ascribing worth to Him?
eg."To Him who sits on the throne, and to the
Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever. Rev.5:13 NIV.
i. honoring Jesus by shouting or even singing His praises?
e.g. In a loud voice they (angels) sang:
Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain
to receive power and wealth and Wisdom
and strength and HONOR AND GLORY
AND PRAISE. Rev.5:12 NIV.
j. verbally ascribing to Jesus absolute worth?
e.g. JESUS: Lord of Lords and King of Kings;
Alpha and Omega, The First and the Last,
The beginning and the end. Rev.20:12
My Lord and my Ho Theos. Jn.20:28
Your name is to be praised O Emmanuel,
Ho Theos with us! Mat.1:23
All power in heaven and earth is Yours; You created all things;
and without you there was nothing made. Jn.1:3
And Your throne Ho Theos is forever. Heb. 1:8
May all angels and men worship you continually. Heb.1:6
Even so come Lord Jesus: Rev.22:20 Amen.
Whether or not one acknowledges an ontological unity between Father and Son, it is clear that Jesus accepted the title God (Ho Theos) as part of worship of himself. (Jn 20:28) and we should feel free to address and worship Him as such. Anything less would be to reduce the honor due His name; the name above all names; the name to which angels must bow and to which the Father declares: Thy throne O God (Ho Theos) is forever. After all, Jesus Christ is our Creator. Why would we not worship our Creator as God?
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DATA-DOG
After all, Jesus Christ is our Creator. Why would we not worship our Creator as God?
According to JW's Jesus is not our Creator or even a co-creator. He was just the instrument YHWH used, the " Master Worker ". The argument is that since the Holy Spirit came from YHWH and not the Son then He could not be considered as a creator. Also he was created, so could not be our creator.
Vanderhoven7, can you comment on this? I always enjoy your posts. You could make a thread of you own so as not to hi-jack this one.
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NeverKnew
Cofty: " Does Jesus have to go to the toilet in heaven? What does he eat? Does he fart, sleep, snore, get an erection,? Does he have to shave? "
Cofty, your sarcasm screams louder than your point and it makes it hard to respect your words after that. What would the answers to these questions mean to you? If nothing, then your question is insincere and insulting.
I just have to wonder....
If the realities of the world were solely based on what YOU could see, what YOU could touch, what YOU could hear, and/or what YOU could understand, what all would YOU miss?
Believers - While I may not be fully following all of the op's words, I share your perception. I really got some great scriptures from you that I hadn't considered with respect to JWs. My concern is that using scriptures to help someone who doesn't believe the Bible is like my boyfriend using the WT to help me believe their doctrines. I hear myself in Cofty when he makes statements suggesting that he's already very "familiar" with what the scripture says, but... If he doesn't believe that the Bible is real because he's not clear on Christ's erectile function, so be it.
Personally, I suspect that our resurrected selves will be understood ...oh, I'd say maybe... after death? Until then, as a Christian, I'm okay not knowing the details. In humility I say I probably wouldn't get it anyways and I surely wouldn't be able to act as an authority to explain it to Cofty.
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Pterist
Cofty ...***and you insist Jesus has a human body so what is there to be so coy about?****
You seem to have a reading or compression problem, buts thats OK I'm like that sometimes, and very dyslectic. I insisted that Jesus is a NEW CREATION, his bloodless body resurrected from the grave to fulfill scripture, the blood shed to fulfill the legal requirement for a Perfect LIFE, the life is in the blood...The body WAS LATER TRANSFIGURED as A NEW CREATION, at his assension, I ALSO said! The book of revelation shows that his body was "out of this world, no pun intended" that's what I said.......
Cofty ***Are you a prudish Victorian aunt who think that it is dirty to talk about such things.****
Well my dear wee bonnie lad, you are the one more apt to wear the Dress/Kilt. Up your kilt with a Harris, McGregor. LOL
Shalom, keep your warm woollies on, you have a mortal body.
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maccauk11
and at the name of jesus every knee will bend ervery head will bow and every tongue confess that he is Lord and the name above every other name
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Pterist
12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, [d] dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead,and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.