If there is a creator, will an expanding universe ever become bigger than he?

by prologos 45 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    What you guys are talking about is the nature of God, and there are many things in this thread that are stated as facts that no one could possibly know. The scriptures say that God made man in His image. So why would God need hands, feet, arms, nose, legs and mouth? We're made to accommodate a terrestrial existence. We stand upright, we walk, talk, eat and speak. The scripture that says God is a spirit was a later addition and wasn't in the earliest texts, so His composition remains a bit of a mystery. Spirits can, however, appear as solid as you or me.

    My own personal belief is that Jehovah was a spirit in the Old Testament days. But I believe Jehovah was the premortal Jesus. Thus, when Moses, Joshua and the seventy elders of Israel saw Him, He appeared as a flesh and bone being. The thing is, to be perfected Jehovah had to take upon Himself a physical body, die (which is a separation of body and spirit), then be eternally resurrected, which is a reunion of body and spirit. Those who say He was a spirit who "materialized" a body, and as some JWs have said, His real body was taken away perhaps to be displayed during the Millennium. But when Jesus appeared to his apostles, He invited them to "handle me and see" for "a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have." (Luke 24:38) Later, some 500 of the brethren saw the risen Lord, and He was not a spirit. (See 1 Cor. 15:6)

    God being omnipresent is a myth. Although a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without Him noticing, He isn't everywhere present. God's presence can be felt in many places at once through the administration of the Holy Spirit. Finally, the scriptures tell us that Jesus is in the "express image" of the Father. If Jesus is therefore perfected with a physical body, why not also the Father?

    We also shouldn't put limitations on anything. In a college theology course, my professor quoted from an ancient extra-biblical document. I don't remember where it came from or who allegedly wrote it, but the writer wrote something that I've never forgotten and which I think is profound. He said, essentially, "Everything is a system in the midst of like systems." It was a brilliant observation. A solar system is a system in the midst of like systems. So are galaxies. It's the same thing for microsystems no matter how sensitive our microscopes. So whether microscopes or telescopes, the statement appears to be a truism. My point is this: If the Universe is a system in the midst of like systems, what would prevent there being other universes beyond ours? And other dominions? Clement of Alexandria, who was an expert in First Century Christianity writes that those saints who are exalted "will be enthroned along with the other gods, who are set first in order under the Savior."

    And Origen, another early church father, wrote: "Now it is possible that some may dislike what we have said representing the Father as the one true God, but admitting other beings besides the true God, who have become gods by having a share of God. They may fear that the glory of Him who surpasses all creation may be lowered to the level of those other beings called gods. ... [However], as, then there are many gods, but to us there is but one God the Father, and many Lords, but to us there is one Lord, Jesus Christ (cf. 1 Cor. 8:5-6). Although this may sound blasphemous on its face, Irenaeus (115-202) recognizes that the saints become joint heirs with Christ, which means that they, too, like Christ, inherit all that the Father has. He explains: "We were not made gods at our beginning, but first we were made men, then, in the end, gods." Thus, when Adam partook of the forbidden fruit, God (Eloheim, plural) said, "Behold, man has become as one of us."

    The Jehovah's Witnesses have long thought they would be happy with a static existence on a Paradise Earth. Hiking, painting, learning to play musical instruments and having family reunions forever, worlds without end, is all they hope for. I remember when I went to school in Hawaii. At first I thought I'd really hit the jackpot. Swimming, diving, lying on the sand and enjoying the breeze while watching surfers. Blue skies, white fluffy clouds and mountains green with vegetation. It was great...for a few months. In that time I drove around the island of Oahu numerous times; I dove at Hunama Bay, did some snorkling at Shark's Cove and stuffed myself at the Polynesian Cultural Center, which had one of the greatest buffets I've ever seen (a friend got me in). But after those few months, I noticed two things: 1) I'd had enough of Paradise and its wonders. I wanted to go back to the mainland. And 2) the natives who'd grown up there were desperate to leave and go to the mainland.

    How long would it take for the "great crowd" to tire of their Paradise Earth? Are they, as children of God, satisfied with the prospect of being little more than pets, taking no part in the running of the Universe?

    Bottom line: God is not a giant. He's not omnipresent, though he is omnipotent and omniscient. How universes are brought into existence is beyond me, but it's known to God. And man can be a player in the creative process once he is resurrected and becomes an exalted being of incalcuable power and glory. He'll never supplant God, but they can act as gods and heirs. And that's worth living for.

  • prologos
    prologos

    thank you'all. EP: am glad you picked up on the Hebr. 3:4 comparison. You and God both build houses, you both are builders. You wrote: --build house for yourself--, he build his for his guests for as Christ Alone pointed out above, 1King 8:27 rules out him dwelling there himself. Another thing you mentioned in your question is the time you spend before you moved into your house. So, you have in common with God that you shared TIME with him. He was in eternal time eternally before the universe (our house)was build , and he will be, no! is already! in time eternally in the future when the universe will be gone, or very very old.

    CHRIST ALONE: hard work to pull Physics and Theology together, Your good points: The universe will never outgrow God.

    you wrote "where did he live?" He lived, still does in TIME, eternal time. We live in time too, passing time. hence: TEMPORARELY. from french: Le temps .

    Joe Grundy: "where did he live" : in eternal TIME. its the other dimension we feel, but dont understand Acts 1:7. its super. About the expansion: light reaches us now that has travelled 14 billion years in time. the source has moved away from us since then, so it might be already another 14 billion light years away from us right now. so it way below the horizon (the universe is curved too. )

    CANT LEAVE. Gender must be your hobbyhorse, its almost off topic. "why gender with God?" you ask, here is my take:

    all spirits except the Creator himself were created directly, a-sexually, but not cloned. why only MALE spirits? because the female has reproduction, birthing written all over her. "mother of all living" Gen 3:20. So, not only are ladies more intelligent, but have the greatest gift, that did apparently not exist in the spirit realm, namely bringing new life, or at least OFFSPRING, with new minds into the world and nurturing it. Only if you want to lower yourself to male status would you resent God being called HE. it would be inappropriate to call him female, because of the way nature works. so be at peace with yourself. you are not a failed man.

    SAT ANUS. I thought about it again. I thought I had answered you already by referring to the other topic: "blasting the KH chair". where I SAT on my ANUS. so we are talking here about a lot of hot air, a by-product of metabloism, a feature of organic life, life its origin divine, not chemical, not "way off topic". So with a name like SAT-ANUS its natural I guess to think about natural gas first.. shalom.

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Ok, i'll explain further. In membrane theory, a potential pops off universes. Some are viable, some aren't, in theory. It's kind of like farts - gas. The universe, in it's early history, after the first few seconds is mainly hot gas, just like a fart. So, describing the universe as a godfart isn't that far off the mark.

    S

  • prologos
    prologos

    Cold Steel: wow! I hope you can be still reheated and continue to be mallable. You wrote that the questions was "about God's NATURE. yes but more specifically as it relates to known facts, the expanding Universe and its and movement into future time. " being made in Gods' image" was a term in a fable. engineering backward we think that GOD somehow is an image of us, thats where the "hands" idea comes from. It appears many people have an image of God in their minds that shows him too small. read the posts above, he extends in TIME, therefore in Equivalent but spiritual EXTENT, beyond the 50 billion light years that the material universe might encompass. He is understood to be eternal therefore limitless.

    The idea of other universes is pure speculation. unnessesary, we have our plates full to digest what is before us here. Good point about

    PRADISE, Hawaii. You watched the surfers? Why did you not GO surfing? you would have stayed forever, always looking for the perfect wave. its my favored sport. its like life. what is life?

    Life is a particular way to use ENERGY. It is traveling THROUGH time, eathly, now, it has a beginning and end. it is glorious. Surfing: it is a special way to use energy to go along. A ride is short and sweet like life. You get on the wave, you travel along using the energy, it is moving along like us in time, and it peters out and you sink back into the low level. also:

    A wave is like us travelling through time. The water in the ocean does not move. its the Wave energy that moves. time does not move, we are moving through time, leaving hardly a ripple. It is only when the wave breaks, becomes a bore, see tsunami, that the trouble starts. so: Jehovah is not a surfer, we are. but his son is reported to have walked on water. but in a later wt illustration it really looked more like surfing. can anyone of you capable ones, blondi, New chapter find that and post it please?. No faith involved here only a long board. find as many connections between the real and the spiritual. peace.

  • EntirelyPossible
    EntirelyPossible

    I don't think God who is almighty is limited by a creation of time.

    So if time doesn't pass, does everything happen at once? Nothing at all? What separates events for him?

  • EntirelyPossible
    EntirelyPossible

    He was in eternal time eternally before the universe (our house)was build , and he will be, no! is already! in time eternally in the future when the universe will be gone, or very very old.

    Huh? He's in eternal time? What does that even mean? How is that different from regular time?

  • Ucantnome
    Ucantnome

    So if time doesn't pass, does everything happen at once? Nothing at all? What separates events for him

    I didn't say that time doesn't pass. But we are limited by what we know. What we know are things in the Universe created by God which include time. To be Almighty God he cannot be limited by time or anything else. He has always existed and always will. I don't think we can imagine always existing. We experience time like watching a film. Each frame following the other. Maybe it is possible to see cut through all those frames from the other direction and see all events at one time. If your almighty this maybe possible.

  • THE GLADIATOR
    THE GLADIATOR

    If I 'God' exists it would be a part of everything that exists. There would be no God versus us, just a collective universal reality that is not separate from reality. How can anything happen that is not God?

    Everything in the universe, whether visible to human eyes or invisible, is energy vibrating at differing speeds. Science is just beginning to comprehend how un-solid all matter is and all that exists is the same energy. What we perceive as physical is a matter of perspective relative to the speed at which the energy that we view as ‘us’ vibrates. As God has yet to talk to me or make contact, I must for now enjoy this beautiful earth and gaze out at the immediate universe of which we are a part and wait for an electronic message from God answering the opening question.

  • cyberjesus
    cyberjesus

    Q: Can God create a Universe that is bigger than him?

    A: Nothing is bigger than him cuz he doesnt live in the universe. he lives in a different universe

    Q: where do you get that?

    A: Its just the nature of God. Thats how it is he is not tied by our natural laws

    Q: Where do you get that?

    A: He is God, you know he created everything.

  • cyberjesus
    cyberjesus

    If God created the Universe would it be possible that the Imperial Star could exist someday?

    Would Darth Vader be consider an Atheist?

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