What would Jesus think of Crosses everywhere? (page 5)

Great scriptures, kepler. Not only Paul but JESUS gave significance to the cross as an object with a far greater meaning. The message of the cross. It is interesting that it is foolish to JWs... 1Cor 1:18: For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Just so others don't have to look up Keplers scriptures, here they are:

Matthew 16:24: Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

Mark 8:34: For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

NewChapter

NC, the difference of a symbol to a logo.

I was not arguing the difference between a symbol and a logo. A logo is a symbol, by very defintion. My discussion was differentiating the difference between a logo and and idol. Idols are also symols also. It's not the symbol but the significance behind it.

For those that argue it simply helps a Christian focus, I guess that trashes the walk by faith not sight principal. The law on your heart. The thought of Jesus elevating any symbol in his life the way the cross has been elevated goes against all I read about Jesus and even the Ancient Jews. Yes, there was a copper snake in the desert---but what happened to that symbol? Well, understanding the risk of it becoming an idol, as is human nature, it was taken away. Considering the proven risk of Christians elevating the cross to an idol, why don't leaders in Christianity do the same?

And again, none of this addresses exactly what is being symbolized. Was it not Jesus's body, offered as a sacrifice that is significant, rather than the tool used to bring about his death? Any tool would have done---it's exchangeable. But what does not change, within Chrisitian belief, is the body that was offered up. That signifies life to them. Bread also signifies life, and Jesus said that bread meant his body. Or if you'd rather go with blood, then wine. Why are these not the things symbolized? The cross is death, not resurrection. But bread? The body? The body that died and was resurrected? It seems to make more sense to focus on something like this---something that can be given---something that can sustain life, rather than focus on death.

But as I said, it's been a cult of suffering and torture for a long time. Perhaps less torture today, but suffering is still honored. Bread doesn't evoke the same kind of emotional response as death. It doesn't dismiss horrendous things done in the name of Christianity throughout the years, and even presently. As Chrisitianity becomes more influenced by secularism, it becomes less brutal. As science enlightens, the old ways are being left behind. Externally. Internally, I think it is very different. Look at the sensation that The Passion of Christ turned out to be. All the gory details, and churches bought up blocks of seats.

It's sanctioned idolatry. Christianity enables people to do twists and turns in their brains to make it not so, but it is so. From flagellatioin, to Inquisition, to kneeling on rice, to Mother Teresa, to insisting a person must suffer and die slowly, as anything to help them let go would be immoral----it's all about the suffering and death. That's why bread won't do. That's why a torture device is the appropriate symbol/logo/idol.

PSacramento

Definition of IDOLATRY

1 : the worship of a physical object as a god No Christian views the cross as God. It is just that simple.

botchtowersociety

Why are these not the things symbolized?

Of course they are. The Cross is not the only Christian symbol.

The cross is death, not resurrection. But bread? The body? The body that died and was resurrected? It seems to make more sense to focus on something like this---something that can be given---something that can sustain life, rather than focus on death.

Through death new life comes. We believe it is this way. There is an ending of a thing followed by a transformation. A woman suffers and a child is born. A seed has to cease being a seed for it to grow and produce fruit. You don't agree, we understand. But that is what we believe. It is a mystical thing.

It's sanctioned idolatry.

You are free to call it whatever you like, but when we worship we do not practice idolatry.

Christ Alone

The thought of Jesus elevating any symbol in his life the way the cross has been elevated goes against all I read about Jesus and even the Ancient Jews.

NC, read what Jesus Himself said about the cross in the scriptures that Kepler sited above.

The Cross CAN be an idol. And it can also merely be a symbol of what we stand for in Christianity. ANYTHING can be an idol, the cross included.

Well, understanding the risk of it becoming an idol, as is human nature, it was taken away.

More than the risk, it DID become an idol. 2Kings 18:4 says that the Israelites were burning insense to the copper serpent, and it was eventually destroyed. So yes, something that was important DID become an idol to Israel.

And again, none of this addresses exactly what is being symbolized.

Paul spoke of this. I keep siting 1Cor 1:17: "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel--not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power." Paul did not use words of human wisdom why? Lest the CROSS of Christ be emptied of IT'S power.

We could argue that other objects could have been considered symbols of Christianity. But the fact is that those other items were not. It was the cross that was important to people. It was the object that Jesus said they all must bear.

As was already brought out, Paul wouldn't boast except in the cross of Jesus Christ (Gal 6:14)

Col 2:14 says: "...having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."

Eph 2:16 says: "...that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity."

Gal 5:11 says: "...if I still preach circumcision, why do I still suffer persecution? The the offense of the cross has ceased."

Gal 6:12: "As many as desire to make a good showing in the flesh, these would compel you to be circumcised, only that they may not suffer persecution for the cross of Christ."

Phil 3:1: "For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ; whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame -- who set their mind on earthly things. For our citizenship is in heaven...."

The cross was important to early Christians, and to Christians today.

What the cross symbolizes is our transgressions being nailed to it. The message of the cross is not merely Jesus body. But our dying as to sin and being raised to new life afterward.

botchtowersociety

For those that argue it simply helps a Christian focus, I guess that trashes the walk by faith not sight principal.

No it does not. These are two different things you are talking about. We have faith in the unseen God, not in a physical object. Yet we are still physical creatures, and what we do with our bodies affects our souls. We use these things to focus our mind and help us remember, and they have also been used as teaching tools.

botchtowersociety

Bread doesn't evoke the same kind of emotional response as death.

The most important ritual for a Christian is to receive God through the Eucharist. For Catholics/Orthodox, that is the primary purpose of going to Mass/Divine Liturgy.

Christ Alone

The most important ritual for a Christian is to receive God through the Eucharist. For Catholics/Orthodox, that is the primary purpose of going to

Mass/Divine Liturgy.

Very true. Communion is the most important to me. It's great to listen to a good sermon, or even listen to a great prayer. But communion is something that you share personally between you and God.

PSacramento

The most important ritual for a Christian is to receive God through the Eucharist. For Catholics/Orthodox, that is the primary purpose of going to Mass/Divine Liturgy.

100% correct, the Eucharist, the giving of thanks, is what "binds" us to The Father through Christ.

What would Jesus think of Crosses everywhere?

Definition of IDOLATRY

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