I don't think that in believing Jesus should be worshipped or prayed to, or that he's not Michael the archangel and that he was begotten and not created means that you believe in the Trinity. I believe in Christ's deity but not that he's part of a triune God. I think a number of christians believe the same way.
new thinking after reading Collosians
by Honeybucket 46 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Kosonen
Black Sheep,
Don't you know better???
Don't you know Church history??
Have you never talked to a priest?
Have you never been preaching?
I went 3 weeks ago to a local Catholic church to see and hear how they preach. After the service I stayed to talk with a neigbour that was there and then I could talk with the priest also. So, I told him little about my history, and he at once asked if I believe in the trinity? I told that I believe in Jesus the son of God . He then wanted to know if I believed that Jesus is equal to God? I told him: No, is it a problem? He was polite and we continued our discussion on other matters.
I can tell you the very first thing a priest have to learn to believe in is the Athanasian Creed. And it is just this stupid garbage definition of the trinity they put down the throat the priest students. Google what is this Athanasian Creed containing the trinity if you are not convinced with the following quote frome Wikipedia:
Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.
Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Essence of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Essence of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood by God. One altogether; not by confusion of Essence; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of the God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.
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Pterist
Kosomen...*** But the Father is allways older****
Why because he had more birthdays ?
This is an amazing statement to mention ageing with respect to the ETERNAL, IMMORTALY God.
The term Alpha and Omeaga, First and Last is applied to BOTH Father and Son in scripture. It signifies a different quality of life. It expresses the ALL encompassing of time in their ETERNAL nature. Our little finite minds caught in time and mortality and can only group at an understanding, but to mention "older" with repect to the Father sounds like Mormonism.
Jesus was ETERNALLY Begotton from ETERNITY, I beget from my nature, I creatate from other stuff. The ETERNAL Son has the SAME nature, same STUFF of the Father.
As Regards the First commandment, Jesus Said NO ONE can come to the Father except through Him...As the presence of Jehovah was in the temple, so only in the real TEMPLE of Christ can we truly love the Father in Spirit and Truth...based on Christ's righteousness, shed blood and Saving work on behalf of mankind.
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Perry
The trinity doctrine means that there is three persons in one God, and that they are completely equal in age, power, knowledge etc. (That's impossible
Kosonen,
How can that be impossible unless you first deny God's omnipotence? But, if you do that .... he isn't God. Surely God with the creative powers of just the things that we can observe could be capable of this couldn't He?
In other words, what could an omnipotent God not be capable of? See the problem with your logic?
Jesus was omnipresent:
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.- John 3: 13 (KJV)
Jesus, as God was both speaking these words and was at the same time... in heaven.
This scripture "in heaven" appears in the majority text (99% of all NT Greek Texts) and was of course testified to by early christian writers prior to the very suspect Alexandrian texts of the 4th century:
KJV John. 3:l3 Hippolytus (170-236)
"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." "No man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of Man which is in heaven." (Against the Heresy of One Noetus I:1:4). Here's another example:
KJV I Tim. 3:16 "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..." Ignatius
(AD 35-116)
"God was in the flesh" (To the Ephesians I:1:7). -
Kosonen
Pterist,
Now colosians 1:15 (American standard version) says about Jesus: who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;
First of all image is not the original,
Second, Jesus was the firstborn of all creation. So he was created by his Father and this creation is also called birth here.
So here already you should see that the Father was before the Son. There is now reason to call some one son if he is not a son???
Third, The STUFF doesn't matter anything, just as we are from the dust it does not make us equal or eternal.
Forth, Jesus teaches us how to love above all (inclusively himself) Jehovah God, Jesus set the example for us how to have exclusive devotion for Jehovah. How to be submissive to Jehovah God. That's why we come to Jehovah God through Jesus. Jesus is the guide to the Father.
But you all trinitarians seem not to wish to come to the Father. You rather distort the understanding of Jesus, to have an excuse to not go futher to the Father.
Fifth, The concept withe temple does not prove Jesus to be superior the Father or equal, because all christians are called to be the temple of God where he dwells will His spirit.
Sixth, I don't think Jehovah likes to celebrate birthdays. Stupid celebration for pagans.
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Kosonen
Perry,
For the Allmighty God Jehovah, there is no reason to make Jesus His son to be equal to Himself. Jehovah could if he wanted in his unlimited power do many things, but He has reasons not to use all his possibilities what ever ways. Thanks to His patience we still live. If he had wanted to use his unlimited power to have a perfect world we would not exist today.
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Perry
Jehovah could if he wanted in his unlimited power do many things
So you do admit that God could exist as three separate personalities with just one essence ... if he wanted to of course. I agree.
Now all you have to do is figure out which statements of Jesus were made in reference to his self... son of Mary, and which ones were made in reference to his self.... the only begotten of God, possessor of his essence.
For instance, when he said all power is given to me in heaven and earth, this obviously is not in reference to his human self. Likewise, when he said that the Father is greater than he was, this obviously was in reference to his human self.
There is simply no other way to reconcile ALL of the statements of Jesus and his apostles without this understanding.
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Pterist
Kosonen
*** First of all image is not the original,**** who said it was ? ...look in the mirror for your image.
*** Second, Jesus was the firstborn of all creation. So he was created by his Father and this creation is also called birth here****
One again you ignore that scripture of First and Last are attributed to Both Father and Son and signify Eternal Qualities.
*** Third, The STUFF doesn't matter anything, just as we are from the dust it does not make us equal or eternal***
The stuff matters a grear deal, he is the same stuff, substance as the Father. Dust is our stuff sunshine, no we are definitely not eternal.
*** But you all trinitarians seem not to wish to come to the Father. You rather distort the understanding of Jesus, to have an excuse to not go futher to the Father.****
The rules to approach the Father is from the Father...you can't call The immortal deity Father unless you have the Spirit of Sonship.you can't have the spirit of sonship unless Christ is in you. The Father was in Jesus, and Jesus said that through Holy Spirit that He and His Father would be in us. So we are baptized into that relationship of love, The Father loving the Son in union by Holy Spirit.,,there are somethings that the Father knows that the Son does not..like the end of time, but wait ...your GB does, 1914, go figure they know more than Jesus....Do you think Jesus could not work that out...if it were true ?
*** Fifth, The concept withe temple does not prove Jesus to be superior the Father or equal****
Who said Jesus was greater than the Father in this analogy ? THe concept that the presence of the Father was in the Jewish temple, Christ compared the temple to Himself as bearing the Presence of his Father in him.....Christians are small parts of the New Building, which your org denies the Holy Spirit,s anointing on The majority of its followers which mean they are not Christ-Ian's ....ie Christ mean anointing. Your org. Promotes Denial of ransom.
*** Sixth, I don't think Jehovah likes to celebrate birthdays. Stupid celebration for pagans***
But you will celebrate the WTBTS 100 years of existence, praising the creation not the creator..if the creator celebrates his birthday he is not praising the creation....birthdays are an non issue. If it is to you, do it and don't boast about your extra good works. Salvation in Christ leads to works OF salvation, not like the RCC and the WTBTS works FOR salvation.
Shalom
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AGuest
There is no trinity (peace to you all!). For there to be a trinity, there would have to be three (3) persons; however, there are only two: the Father, the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies (Psalm 68:4)... and the Son, the HOLY One of Israel, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah)... who is the [Holy] Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:17; 1 John 2:1, 2). He is the HOLY Spirit because:
(1) He became the GLORIFIED Son who, like his Father, is a spirit (John 4:24; 7:39; 12:16; 13:31, 32; 1 Timothy 3:16); and
(2) He is the HOLY One of Israel... to God's being the MOST Holy One of Israel (look to the tabernacle and temple, as well as to the relationship between Pharaoh and Joseph - Exodus 26:33, 34;1 Kings 8:6; Hebrews 9:2, 3, 12; 10:19-21; Revelation 21:22; Genesis 41:38, 40-44, 46, 55; Matthew 17:5; Genesis 41:56; Acts 2:17, 18).
The trinity teaching is the result of the false pen of the copyists (Jeremiah 8:8) who took the notion from the trinue god(s) worshipped by the nations and used it to change the original statement of Christ, recorded at Matthew 28:19:
"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..."
What Christ actually said was:
"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father (JAH... of Armies - Psalm 68:4)... INTO the Son (we are baptized into the Son's death and as a result become part of HIM... his "Body", so that we are IN him and he IN us... "union" - Romans 6:3; 1 Corinthians 12:13, 27Galatians 3:27; John 15:1-6)... IN holy spirit (which is what we are baptized WITH... along with "fire" as stated by John the Baptizer - Matthew 3:11; Mark 1:8; Luke 3:16; John 1:33; Acts 1:5; 2:1-44; 11:16; 19:2, 3, 5, 6... versus with water (H20), as per "John's baptism"). It is baptism with "LIVING 'water'"... which "water" comes forth FROM the One who IS the Life... the Holy One of Israe (John 4:10, 13, 14; 7:37-39; 14:6; Isaiah 44:3; Exodus 17:6; Numbers 20:7; 1 Corinthians 10:4; Revelation 7:17; 21:6; 22:1, 17; Isaiah 55:1).
To teach that there is a trinity is not only to continue to perpetuate a lie, it is an utter disregard for the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies... His temple... as well as His Son, the One HE appointed as the HOLY in that temple... whom HE glorified and gave the position above all other positions (except Himself).
That One, the Holy One of Israel... and [Holy] Spirit... is the only-begotten son of Jerusalem Above (aka "Sarah") (Galatians 4:26)... just as Isaac was the only-begotten son of Abraham by Sarah (Genesis 21:2, 3; 22:2; Hebrews 11:17)... and thus the true LEGAL heir to God's kingdom. God's other son, Adham (Luke 4:38), was His only-begotten son by the "earth" (aka "Hagar") (Genesis 2:7)... just as Ishmael was the only-begotten son of Abraham by Hagar (Genesis 16:1-4, 11). And while Ishmael was greatly loved... is was NOT the HEIR. (Genesis 21:8-13)
He, Christ, is "only-begotten" Son of God NOT because God alone created him - indeed, he was not created, but born... and hence, a SON. He is the only-begotten because, thus far, he is the ONLY Son of God... with the Woman, Jerusalem Above. (Revelation 12:1, 2, 5) As with Isaac, the son of Abraham's love for his FREE wife, Sarah... Christ is the Son... of God's LOVE... for HIS "free" wife: "Sarah"... or Jerusalem Above. As Ishmael being born in the manner of the flesh (by means of Abraham's mere physical union with Hagar) depicts Adham being born "of the earth," Isaac being born as the result of a PROMISE... depicts CHRIST... being born "of the SPIRIT."
That "Woman"... is the spirit realm. Formerly, barren, the "head" of her "child", a boy, has already been born. Now, the creation awaits the "birth" of the REST of her "child," her seed... those who are born in the manner of a PROMISE (Galatians 3:29): born AGAIN... this time, NOT in the manner of the FLESH... but like the Head, in SPIRIT. That "seed" constitutes the BODY of that child... and by means of holy spirit such ones are ADOPTED as sons of God. (Romans 8:15-17; Galatians 4:5-7; Revelation 12:17). They are all born (in the SPIRIT) at the same time, either via [the first] resurrection... or by means of a changing... then are taken, together, to meet Christ and be taken home (to the Father's house) to be joined to him... married... IN SPIRIT. (1 Corinthians 15:51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; Revelation 6:10,11; John 14:2, 3)
And in this way a holy nation... of kings and priests... a nation of a "people for a special possession"... is BORN... "in ONE day." In ONE day, the "barren woman" cries out in birth pangs. For now, she is still "widening out her tent cords"... in anticipation of her "brood." 1 Peter 2:9, 10; Isaiah 54:1-8; 66:7, 8; Revelation 12:1, 2, 5.
May those who wish be given ears to hear and get the sense of these truths, as well as to hear the Spirit and the Bride, when they say to you:
"Come! Take 'life's water'... the holy spirit of God, the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob... which spirit is poured out from the innermost parts of His Son and Christ, the HOLY One of Israel and [Holy] Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah)... FREE!"
I hope this helps and, again, peace to you all!
A slave of Christ,
SA
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Christ Alone
There are a few things I found interesting from Kosonen's post.
1. Grandios claims to start the post. "As you continue to grow in knowledge..." is one of the most common ways to start an anti trinity disucssion from someone that does not believe it, is what I've found. There is usually the beginning of flowery words to attempt to place oneself in a higher position than the one that is making the argument.
2.. Lack of scriptural reference. There was absolutely no scriptures presented to prove the claim that the Father is older than the Son (no scripture about this exists). The only scripture referenced was Col 1:15,16, which can only be presented from an English perspective. If one was to go to the Greek, one would see that "firstborn" was a commonly used legal term to refer to inheritence and not to "first created". However, the poster avoided any discussion of the Greek and essentially said, 'Since Jesus is firstborn, this means he was first created.' This avoids the important fact that there IS a Greek word for first created, and Paul didn't use that word.
3. Next were the accusations that the other view lacks knowledge. It was stated in a passive/aggressive manner:
Don't you know better???
Don't you know Church history??
It's as if anyone that could make the claim that Jesus is eternal and is called God in the scriptures does not know the scriptures and does not know Church history. Actually the Trinity was upheld from the earliest of times by the earliest church fathers. Even a cursory reading of the ante nicene fathers will show that. contrary to WT teaching, the belief that Jesus was God was believed from even the earliest times.
4. The major quotes were from...wikipedia. No reference to scholarly work, because most scholars recognize that while the word "Trinity" is not said in the Greek text, the teaching that Jesus was God IS in the text.
5. Finally, the poster shows where he is at in his understanding of scripture by continuing to use the name "Jehovah" in his posts. This name has been thoroughly debunked as a creation of man. It was not unitl 1278 that someone started trying to put the vowels inside the divine name to create a pronouncable name. This was done by the monk, Raymundo Martini. Even at that time, he used the spelling "Yohoua". In 1303, Porchetus de Salvaticis changed it to "IOHOUAH, IOHOUA and IHOUAH." Then in 1518 Petrus Galatinus, a catholic priest, spelled God's name IEHOUA.
Most of us know this. But this poster insists on using a man made created name for God.
6. Lastly, he does not understand even the BASICS of the Trinity. He says: "They know Jesus, but they don't know the Father, and that's why they mess Jesus and God the Father into one person." Interesting, because I do not know of ANYONE that believes this. The Trinity does NOT say that Jesus and the Father are the same person. This is the often WT used claim to say that trinitarians belive in modalism. No, we don't. Jesus and the Father are completely different PEOPLE. But they share the same nature. An angel is an angel by nature. A man is a man by nature. God is god by nature. I was recently reading on jwstruggle, and someone illustrated it like this: Son of Dog = Dog. Son of Cat = Cat. Son of man = man. Son of God = God.
The Jews knew very well what Jesus was claiming by calling himself the Son of God. (John 5:18). By saying that Jesus was God's Son, they knew that Jesus was claiming to be equal to God. And that, to them. was worthy of stoning.
Why is this important? Because while the poster tries to make it appear that he has TRUE knowledge of God, anyone who acknowledges that Jesus IS called God in the scriptures does not. This isn't meant to be an attack on the poster, but an examination if he has genuine knowledge of the subject.
Beyond this, there are countless reasons to hold to the belief that Jesus is eternal, He is God, and He should be worshiped. Knowledge of the Bible will show that one should worship God ONLY. Yet. Jesus accepted worship. Acts 10:25,26 clearly shows that worship should only be directed to God. Romans 1:25 shows that to worship any created thing is wrong. Yet, worship can and should be given to Jesus. Matthew 8:2 shows that a leper worshiped Jesus...and was not corrected for it. Matthew 14:33 shows that the disciples worshiped Jesus after seeing the power that only God could perform. Hebrews 1:6 shows that even angels worship Jesus Christ.
We also know that God shares His glory with NO ONE. Isaiah 42:8 shows this very clearly. Yet, Jesus asked that the Father glorify Him with the same glory that He had before the world was. (John 17:5)
So what about this talk about Jesus being the "image" of God. Is it not true that the image is not an original? When I look at my image in a mirror, am I not seeing the original? Is it "another" or a "different" me? Very silly.
So is Jesus "a" God? Or a lesser God? We obviously CAN call Jesus God since Isaiah did, right? Isaiah called Jesus the Wonderful Counselor, the Mighty God, the Father of eternity, the Prince of Peace. (Is 9:6) If Jesus is NOT eternal, then how is He the Father of eternity? Is Jesus an angel? As was already brought out, a simple reading of Hebrews 1 shows that He is not. If Jesus is not Deity, then what is He? Why is He called God so many times throughout scripture, but some refuse to acknowledge this? John 20:28 calls Jesus our Lord and our God.
Even the Father calls Jesus "God". Hebrews 1:8 SHOULD clarify this to everyone. It says: " But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom."If the Bible calls Jesus "God", the Father calls Jesus "God", and the disciples called Jesus "God", then so can I. Jesus IS GOD!