by punkofnice 544 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
If you tell people something they already know/sense is true... then are they actually believing you, or just agreeing with you?
Though the thing about the paint is funny. Same with being a waitress and telling people the plate is hot. The very first thing people do (and I am not exception) is touch the plate. Though really I think that is more to see just how hot the plate is, and whether or not you agree with the assessment ; )
Peace,
tammy
Hi Tammy,
I need to run out to Costco, so this will be just quick reponse on one item...
"Godly power without actually having to exist -- now that is overcoming an amazing deficit! (I really do mean that sincerely)"
Power is the ability to overcome an obstacle and the biggest obstacle anyone could face is not existing. Thus when Jesus was put to death by the Romans, I believe he physically ceased to exist, yet it did not end his power and influence. He is still "with" his followers, such as yourself. Even as an atheist I can acknowledge that power.
Cheers,
-Randy
Hi Tammy,
First let me say, how much appreciate your answers -- thank you. I would like to expand on the woman caught in the act of adultery, which is indeed from John 8. You said...
My Lord says to me again, "John."
I again ignore him, and look through Mark. Again I do not find the passage.
Lets imagine Christ really was the one to say "John" in this instance. One of the things that would imply is Christ knows how to speak English. As far as we know when on earth Jesus spoke Aramaic. Given the time and place he lived he could have also been familiar with Greek, Latin and Hebrew, but certainly not modern English. The universe is an extremely large place, and you are on a planet in orbit the Sun on the outer region of the milky way galaxy. The earth is large too and spinning at a rate of about 1000 miles per hour. Thus Christ would need to know where to locate you. Then he would need some way to trigger the portion of your brain relates to language and hearing, then cognition. If Christ were physically in the same room as you, and could create sound like we do, then of course he could simply say, "John" and you would hear it with your normal sense of hearing.
Next we have to imagine he would have some purpose in doing this. We have to be careful in answer this because it could create a moral dilemma. We must face the question of why such incredible power is used to produce an audible "John" for you, yet there is so much suffering in the world. Many children die each day from malnutrition for example. So why would Christ make "John" and audible artifact to you? Perhaps it was to teach you to rely upon him. Or it could be to give you assurance that this passage is not a spurious. But, notice, it centers on you. The dilemma your mind was facing -- namely not being able to recall where this passage was. This is what I mean by ego-centric, personal (although I do stress, I don't mean to imply this is a negative thing).
If Christ only exists within your mind, then these events would need natural explanation that avoided the supernatural. So... the first thing to suggest, is you must have in the past seen these verses in John. In other words the knowledge of where these verses exist must have been encoded in your brain by some prior experience. I assume that is so? Next there must be some evidence that memory recall within a human mind is not perfect and it is possible to be confused by where to locate this information. I would further suggest there could be some proximate reason why you assumed Mark (i.e. top-of-mind, as advertisers like to accomplish) vs deeper knowledge you also had it was in John. Since the brain is so complex, it may be hard to discover that reason. But it could be as simple as you have been reading Mark recently, especially would my theory work if you had been reading a passge in Mark where Jesus comments on adultery or interacts with a woman. Do any of these suggestions align with your experience?
The difference between these two explanations is the natural one is cheaper and it doesn't create a moral dilemma of any sort. Although it may seem disrespectful to even ask if Christ knows English or not, or where to locate his followers on planet earth, such things would be real problems and being able to address them indicates vast power that leads to questions of how and why such power is used.
Cheers,
-Randy
First let me say, how much appreciate your answers -- thank you. I would like to expand on the woman caught in the act of adultery, which is indeed from John 8. You said...
You're welcome. Thank you for not being annoyed at the length in them as I try to be accurate. I also appreciate your concern in not wanting to offend, but I assure you I am not taking offense in any of the questions that you ask. Nothing wrong with questions. Even those that we might not yet know the answers... probably especially those ones ;)
Lets imagine Christ really was the one to say "John" in this instance.
Okay... ;)
One of the things that would imply is Christ knows how to speak English. As far as we know when on earth Jesus spoke Aramaic. Given the time and place he lived he could have also been familiar with Greek, Latin and Hebrew, but certainly not modern English.
Sure. But He is not just a man. He is the Holy Spirit. Life came through Him; He has been around since the beginning... I'm not thinking our language barriers are His language barriers.
One gift of the spirit is speaking in tongues. But can a person give someone something that they do not possess? As well, in Revelation, those who belong to Christ come from every nation, tribe, and language.
The universe is an extremely large place, and you are on a planet in orbit the Sun on the outer region of the milky way galaxy. The earth is large too and spinning at a rate of about 1000 miles per hour. Thus Christ would need to know where to locate you.
I think that you are framing this in a manner that applies purely to the physical. Christ is Spirit. While the physical may be a reflection of the spiritual, it is not the spiritual.
Then he would need some way to trigger the portion of your brain relates to language and hearing, then cognition. If Christ were physically in the same room as you, and could create sound like we do, then of course he could simply say, "John" and you would hear it with your normal sense of hearing.
Or what He speaks in spirit, translates in a manner that I hear as I can understand.
Similar to talking to someone (like a child) on their level, perhaps until they can understand your own.
It is simply Him speaking, and me hearing. Just in the spirit, rather than physically face to face with someone.
Perhaps this will help. We are spirits. It is not that we 'have' spirits. We ARE spirits, 'within' these physical vessels. So it is not a matter of speaking audibly, or triggering something in the brain; but rather speaking spirit to spirit.
Next we have to imagine he would have some purpose in doing this.
Yes.
We have to be careful in answer this because it could create a moral dilemma.
It does not. The moral dilemmas sometimes/often arise due to our own lack of understanding. Such as thinking that Christ could not speak to someone who belongs to Him and who is asking/listening to Him, as long as there are problems and atrocities (being caused by men) in this world.
I mean, if that were the case, Christ could never speak, and anyone could 'defeat' (silence) Him just by causing harm to others.
We must face the question of why such incredible power is used to produce an audible "John" for you, yet there is so much suffering in the world.
Why would speaking to someone use an incredible amount of power?
Many children die each day from malnutrition for example.
They do. Not because Christ has spoken to someone.
So why would Christ make "John" and audible artifact to you?
I am still speaking spiritually here... speaking within.
Perhaps it was to teach you to rely upon him.
It was simply to help me. In something that he had asked of me, in this instance.
But regardless, He said that the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth (meaning Him, the Spirit of Christ) would speak and teach, and that His sheep would hear his voice. He is doing as He said He would do.
If you called your father to ask him something, is he going to ignore your call, or is he going to try to answer you, out of love FOR you?
Where is the love in not answering or teaching those who are looking to and belonging to you? Especially when you said that you would teach and speak to them, not leaving them as orphans?
Or it could be to give you assurance that this passage is not a spurious. But, notice, it centers on you. The dilemma your mind was facing -- namely not being able to recall where this passage was. This is what I mean by ego-centric, personal (although I do stress, I
don't mean to imply this is a negative thing).
I don't take anything that you have said as negative, and I hope that you do not do so from me either. But yes, it does center on something that I asked/needed. I am giving a personal testimony, so I am not sure how it could go otherwise.
If Christ only exists within your mind, then these events would need natural explanation that avoided the supernatural.
Yes.
So... the first thing to suggest, is you must have in the past seen these verses in John. In other words the knowledge of where these verses exist must have been encoded in your brain by some prior experience. I assume that is so?
It is possible. I reasoned through why I thought the passage was not in John, mind you, so I cannot say that it must be so that I did have it encoded. But it is possible.
Next there must be some evidence that memory recall within a human mind is not perfect and it is possible to be confused by where to locate this information.
I think that is obvious, lol.
I would further suggest there could be some proximate reason why you assumed Mark (i.e. top-of-mind, as advertisers like to accomplish) vs deeper knowledge you also had it was in John. Since the brain is so complex, it may be hard to discover that reason.
It may be hard to discover the reason as per what we understand about the brain, true.
It may also simply be that Christ is the one who knew (the deeper knowledge); what I thought I knew (the top of the mind), and so it was Him that I heard. I mean, He did not just say it once, and only the reminder of the word, John. But three times, and with an added message that last time.
But it could be as simple as you have been reading Mark recently, especially would my theory work if you had been reading a passge in Mark where Jesus comments on adultery or interacts with a woman. Do any of these suggestions align with your experience?
I must say no to this. I almost never read the bible, other than to look up passages to help someone else see something. That is exactly why I was looking this verse up, so that I could copy it and show someone else something about the choices that people make, based on choosing what is permissable by the law... vs... choosing in accordance to love and mercy and forgiveness, that is BEST (and the culmination of the law) My Lord reminded me of that verse, then tried to help me out in finding it, 'cept that I was too stubborn to listen.
The difference between these two explanations is the natural one is cheaper and it doesn't create a moral dilemma of any sort.
Cheaper as in easier to accept according to what science currently knows?
(no moral dilemma though)
Although it may seem disrespectful to even ask if Christ knows English or not, or where to locate his followers on planet earth, such things would be real problems and being able to address them indicates vast power that leads to questions of how and why such power is used.
I don't think it was disrespectful at all. Why not ask those questions? I can ask my Lord anything that i am curious about or do not understand. I might not be able to hear the answer yet (hear as in accept); but that does not mean that He will not teach me. Sometimes I need to understand 'building block' concepts, before I could grasp the answer to a question. Like trying to understand calculus without knowing first how to add. (okay, I so don't know calculus, but hopefully you catch my meaning).
Hope I addressed everything you wanted me to.
Peace,
tammy
... also going to bed now, lol.
Peace,
tammy
If man is so smart, why can't science produce even one single seed that would produce a blade of grass from scratch? I men are so smart, then they should be able to create simple rocks, should they not?
The answer is simple, they can do none of those things. Only God can produce a rock or a bladed of grass. Man has created nothing, only minipulated what was already here....which of course was actually made by God.
Sam - this thread is not a out how smart men are. Since we are now entering an era of genetic engineering I suspect we will be able to create all sorts of life forms within a few years. You must know that this argument holds no water. If God was a designer why did he do such a rubbish job of the human body? From a design pov it's atrocious. Unless god is a drunk we can only explain the absolute lack of design as adaptation of features to perform functions rather than features designed to perform functions. One very simple example is the collocation of the food and breathing pipe work leading to pointless choking deaths.
Tec - can you doubt that your experiences are objectively real, can you conceive of the possibility that you are fooled 100%? I suspect not, as you've alluded to many times you would not doubt your Christ. In fact imo you've moved into a religious phase where you have used mantra like phrases that don't actually mean anything ( Christ is light/love etc.) but do effectively stop a thought process. I will wager that your Christ will absolutely refuse to reveal a cure for cancer while millions die from it BUT will happily allow us, humanity, to inch towards medical solutions for these very illnesses Christ psssively ignor es. What I'm saying is that this internal dialogue with an imagined being is easy to understand ( I used to do it, Cofty did and anyone with a good imagination and a belief set regularly achieves whether it be with a saint, a deceased ancestor or some divine being.) The secret is to revealing the truth of the source ( our own mind) is in the quality of the information 'revealed', only if you can give quantifiable, testable info not available to your mind do you even have a hope of suggesting you aren't the source. We know over our long discussions here you have never been able to do so though your 'baby teeth contain the soul' revelation/idea was very inventive.
I may have to give up reading this thread because whilst I am enjoying the thoughts of all....I am finding it incredibly tedious reading the same post broken down and answered sentence by sentence. Having it dissected only to read the answer.... Yes...or No.
I don't really want to read the same post over and over in the next persons response. Just a response would be really appreciated.
Thanks anyway for the interesting dialogue.
Hi Tammy,
Thanks for your so very honest response. Even saying you almost never read the Bible other than to look up passages. I also appreciate your comments about why you look up passages. Humans are social animals we survive and thrive in large part because we're willing to help each others. That is what makes the shunning policies of Jehovah's Witnesses particularily cruel.
The cost of an explanation, "cheaper", as I put, is often called Occams Razor. It is the observation that given two possible explanations it is most often true the most economical one is the truth. My moral dilemma comment hints at the problem of suffering, which I don't think is actually easy to dismiss without being illogical. As Witnesses we were told suffering was the result of Adam and Eve being disobedient. We were also told, Jesus, through his father Jehovah, was the creator of all things, including life on earth. This makes the answer to suffering illogical, since a rabbit suffers when it is attacked and killed by a wolf in the same physical way a human child would suffer if they were the object of attack. Yet we would here need to assume, Jehovah through Jesus, would have worked through all the design elements of a wolf would know such would lead to suffering. Likewise humans get cancer and die, it is assume because of sin (Romans 5:12), but dogs also get cancer and suffer in the same way, although we wouldn't assume they too inherited sin from the disobedience of Adam and Eve. I appreciate some Christians argue for a universal application here to cover that -- but I suspect they do so, not because it it logical, but because they've spotted the problem of suffering and are trying to answer it.
As I read this thread I think my thoughts on the steel box are incomplete. It is obvious that we can carry concepts of people, ones not present and even purely imagined ones in our minds. But to suggest Christ is Holy Spirit implies an external entity that can effect you, within your mind, regardless of any barriers. I doesn't matter where you are, it doesn't matter what language you know. This is what I mean by incredible power to communicate. Consider this post, I am writing this in my home in Chandler, AZ. I happen to run Firefox on Ubuntu GNU/Linux. Each character that I type involves literally 100s of thousands of computer instructions being accurately processed within my home computer. But this is only the start, a number of computers connected to the world-wide Internet will process this data, mostly store it and forward it upon demand, until finally it reaches your screen, where you can read it. If you're blind more technology would be used to read the text back to you. If you didn't understand written English our communication break down. If you went into a steel box with no connection to the Internet my message could not reach you. Yet, Christ as a Holy Spirit, effortlessly overcomes any barrier.
On the subject of Bible reading, I would encourage you to read through the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. When I was one of Jehovah's Witnesses I eventually was appointed as a ministerial servant then later as an elder. I felt a bit bad that while I had read many large sections of the Bible, even as an elder, I had not read it cover to cover. Since I was riding the bus to work, I used that opportunity to accomplish this task. I feel there is a real difference between how isolated verses sound compared to reading the entire context. I was so thrilled to complete the Bible, I decided to read all the major Holy Books, starting next the Quran, which I read. Then the Book of Mormon, which I started but stopped. I finally got back to the Book of Mormon after I left the faith in 2007. I was encouraged to read it by a co-worker who knew I left the faith, so I did, including the saying the Moroni prayer that is suggested at the end -- that prayer was not answered.
When you serve as an MS or Elder and you have children, as I do, it is required that you have a family Bible study. I think like most, my children did not enjoy yet another sit down Bible study, considering how much we did as Witnesses already. So I eventually reduce it down to reading 2 pages of Bible most week days. When I left the faith in 07, even though I was by that point an atheist, I saw no reason to stop the Bible reading program. Last night we just finished up Philemon and started on Hebrews. So I am close to completing the Bible for the second time. I should mentioned I did make one adjustment after leaving the faith, we read 2 pages of the Bible followed by 4 pages from another book I think my youngest (she is 9) will enjoy. Thus we're nearly complete on the 2nd book of the Harry Potter series. Reading HP was not something I would have allowed while in the faith, but I must say I've really enjoyed these books.
Cheers,
-Randy
If man is so smart, why can't science produce even one single seed that would produce a blade of grass from scratch? I men are so smart, then they should be able to create simple rocks, should they not?
The answer is simple, they can do none of those things. Only God can produce a rock or a bladed of grass. Man has created nothing, only minipulated what was already here....which of course was actually made by God
My word the stupidity abounds with with this one.
