FINALLY! Can you prove God exists? If you can I won't ask again!

by punkofnice 544 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • rawe
    rawe

    Hi Sam Whiskey,

    If man is so smart, why can't science produce even one single seed that would produce a blade of grass from scratch? I men are so smart, then they should be able to create simple rocks, should they not?

    The answer is simple, they can do none of those things. Only God can produce a rock or a bladed of grass. Man has created nothing, only minipulated what was already here....which of course was actually made by God.

    I think you make a good point here. I wouldn't phrase it exactly like that, but essentially the standard of judgment you're using is measured capability. I not sure if it would qualify under the definition of "simple rocks" but most of the elements you see on the Periodic Table of elements ( see http://www.webelements.com/ ) with higher numbers have been discovered because scientists synthesized (created) them.

    If anyone made the claim they knew exactly how non-organic matter first became a living biological system a good test of that would be to create a form of synthetic life. No one has passed that test and therefore we can say the origin of life is still unknown. All we know is that it happened, since life is obviously here. One theory for the origin of life is made by God, but that theory suffers from circular reasoning as soon as you say God was alive at the time.

    Cheers,

    -Randy

  • mrsjones5
    mrsjones5

    .I am finding it incredibly tedious reading the same post broken down and answered sentence by sentence. Having it dissected only to read the answer.... Yes...or No.

    I stopped long ago.

  • Tater-T
    Tater-T

    isn't it amazing the lengths of post people write.. yet say nothing.... no one has PROVED anything in regard to the existence of God ..

    Only God could do that..

    But, he has proven he doesn't take care of his beloved creation .. 9 million childern die of starvation before the age of 9 every year

    The proof is in the pudding or a lack there of...

  • tec
    tec

    Tec - can you doubt that your experiences are objectively real, can you conceive of the possibility that you are fooled 100%? I suspect not, as you've alluded to many times you would not doubt your Christ.

    I can totally doubt me. I cannot doubt Him any longer. Too many times He has spoken to me about something i did not know before; too many times he has helped me. He has never been untrue to me.

    I will wager that your Christ will absolutely refuse to reveal a cure for cancer while millions die from it BUT will happily allow us, humanity, to inch towards medical solutions for these very illnesses Christ psssively ignores.

    Death, disease, etc... all part of this world. He never gave the world the 'cure' for leprosy before either, but healed people who asked and whose faith was in Him. So not passive at all.

    But this body is subject to disease and illness and injury and death.

    What I'm saying is that this internal dialogue with an imagined being is easy to understand ( I used to do it, Cofty did and anyone with a good imagination and a belief set regularly achieves whether it be with a saint, a deceased ancestor or some divine being.)

    Then where were you and those other people during the time that those who admit to hearing our Lord were being accused of being mentally ill?

    In any case, I can have imaginary conversations with people - fictional and real. So I can recognize the difference between them, and my Lord speaking.

    The secret is to revealing the truth of the source ( our own mind) is in the quality of the information 'revealed', only if you can give quantifiable, testable info not available to your mind do you even have a hope of suggesting you aren't the source. We know over our long

    discussions here you have never been able to do so though your 'baby teeth contain the soul' revelation/idea was very inventive.

    Personally, I know what I know and what I don't know. I know that my Lord spoke something to me and to another yesterday, something that we realized later, talking. I also know that there are some things He tells me that I could have known... becasue these occassions are reminders of things that I have previously read, seen, heard... but perhaps did not know how to apply them. (kind of like that whole 'their eyes were opened') Then there are some things that He tells me that are direct answers to questions I have asked, or things that I did not know and could not have known before He told me something.

    Now, I know that unless you or others experience these things for yourself, and perhaps not even then depending upon what you are willing to see and hear and accept, you will most likely find another explanation. Not much different than how some believers search to find another explanation when something comes up that seems to threaten their belief system.

    I cannot convince you or anyone. I am just giving my witness and answering questions. What others do with or from that, is not up to me.

    Peace,

    tammy

  • tec
    tec
    The cost of an explanation, "cheaper", as I put, is often called Occams Razor. It is the observation that given two possible explanations it is most often true the most economical one is the truth.

    Gotcha.

    I would suggest that what each person considers the most economical, can be subjective to that person. Perhaps also to what we know at any given time. I will try and illustrate below. (I will leave the moral question for another post or thread though, unless you would like to discuss it. It does tend to turn into a full-fledged topic of its own though, lol)

    As I read this thread I think my thoughts on the steel box are incomplete. It is obvious that we can carry concepts of people, ones not present and even purely imagined ones in our minds. But to suggest Christ is Holy Spirit implies an external entity that can effect you, within your mind, regardless of any barriers. I doesn't matter where you are, it doesn't matter what language you know. This is what I mean by incredible power to communicate. Consider this post, I am writing this in my home in Chandler, AZ. I happen to run Firefox on Ubuntu GNU/Linux. Each character that I type involves literally 100s of thousands of computer instructions being accurately processed within my home computer. But this is only the start, a number of computers connected to the world-wide Internet will process this data, mostly store it and forward it upon demand, until finally it reaches your screen, where you can read it. If you're blind more technology would be used to read the text back to you. If you didn't understand written English our communication break down. If you went into a steel box with no connection to the Internet my message could not reach you. Yet, Christ as a Holy Spirit, effortlessly overcomes any barrier.

    I love this example that you use. Perhaps you might consider that all of that above, is man attempting to copy what the Spirit can already do... using technology instead. (the more complex of the two... albeit necessary for us to communicate with one another now)

    On the subject of Bible reading, I would encourage you to read through the Bible from Genesis to Revelation.

    Oh, my apologies. I did not mean to imply that i had never read it through. I have, multiple times. That is what I did... a personal study... when I stopped studying with the jws, according to their spin on things. In fact, the whole reason I wanted to read the bible myself was so that no one else could fool me with false teachings. If I at least knew what was in the bible, I would be better prepared to know if someone was spinning it or telling me something that was not there.

    I just have not done that in years. No need. It points to Christ... and we are meant to go to HIM (not continue to search the scriptures thinking that by them we have life)

    When I was one of Jehovah's Witnesses I eventually was appointed as a ministerial servant then later as an elder. I felt a bit bad that while I had read many large sections of the Bible, even as an elder, I had not read it cover to cover. Since I was riding the bus to work, I used that opportunity to accomplish this task. I feel there is a real difference between how isolated verses sound compared to reading the entire context.

    I agree, absolutely. Context... rather than a twisting and abuse of a scritpure or verse to suit someone's agenda.

    I was so thrilled to complete the Bible, I decided to read all the major Holy Books, starting next the Quran, which I read. Then the Book of Mormon, which I started but stopped. I finally got back to the Book of Mormon after I left the faith in 2007. I was encouraged to read it by a co-worker who knew I left the faith, so I did, including the saying the Moroni prayer that is suggested at the end -- that prayer was not answered.

    Interesting! I just finished reading the Quran myself. Never tried to read the Book of Mormon. After I stopped my study with the witnesses, they came around, and being miss polite, I allowed them in. The whole time I am sitting at the table, I am hearing, 'WHAT are you doing? Why are you listening to them now? Did you not learn? Stop listening to them, come OUT of them. They are not the Truth." (paraphrasing; this was years ago)

    But in addition, every fiber in my being was screaming at me to stop listening to them, to get away from them. Which I understand now as the desire to 'run from a stranger's voice'.

    They came back at a time that my husband was home, and i was not... and well, suffice it to say that I never heard from them again, lol.

    When you serve as an MS or Elder and you have children, as I do, it is required that you have a family Bible study. I think like most, my children did not enjoy yet another sit down Bible study, considering how much we did as Witnesses already. So I eventually reduce it down to reading 2 pages of Bible most week days. When I left the faith in 07, even though I was by that point an atheist, I saw no reason to stop the Bible reading program. Last night we just finished up Philemon and started on Hebrews. So I am close to completing the Bible for the second time. I should mentioned I did make one adjustment after leaving the faith, we read 2 pages of the Bible followed by 4 pages from another book I think my youngest (she is 9) will enjoy. Thus we're nearly complete on the 2nd book of the Harry Potter series. Reading HP was not something I would have allowed while in the faith, but I must say I've really enjoyed these books.

    Is your family still in? You still study the bible with your children? That is interesting.

    I love the Harry Potter books also ; )

    Peace,

    tammy

  • tec
    tec

    isn't it amazing the lengths of post people write.. yet say nothing.... no one has PROVED anything in regard to the existence of God ..
    Only God could do that..

    I don't think anyone has said that they can prove the existence of God to other people. Only that He has been so proven to THEM. Then some have pointed to the ONE (Christ) who did so for them when they asked/seeked/knocked and continued to do so, placing their faith in that He will keep His promise. Faith that has been answered.

    Peace,

    tammy

  • rawe
    rawe

    Hi Tammy,

    "Is your family still in? You still study the bible with your children? That is interesting."

    We all left as a family, my wife, myself and our four girls. My oldest continued for about 6 months but eventually left as well. I have three older girls (24, 22 and 19) and then our youngest (9). So, yes if you would count the Bible reading as study, then I do. My 3rd daughter studies at St. John's College. It is not a religous school despite the name, but rather a "great books" program and as part of that she has covered the Bible, including translating a fair amount of it from Greek.

    I completely agree with you on the subject of Jesus Christ. The NT, much of which is the writings of Paul, is entirely focused on Jesus as the Christ. Something that is de-emphasized by the Witnesses and the NWT.

    I found the Book of Mormon an easier read than the Quran. Reading it feels like sitting in church listening to a preacher. There are some repetitious phrases like "and it came to pass" that repeat. And of course you'll run into KJV text from Isaiah -- 13 consecutive chapters in one place.

    Cheers,

    -Randy

  • Qcmbr
    Qcmbr

    http://hinduism.about.com/b/2012/09/24/the-ganesha-milk-miracle.htm

    If Jesus is proven by wine then why not Ganesh by milk

    Hindus have a supernatural bridge. beat that christians.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam's_Bridge

    They found the 12000 year old city of Krishna

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQZFS9Hij0M

    And did you know that Jesus was a Hindu and they have his actual grave?

    http://bharatnirman.wordpress.com/2011/11/17/scientific-proof-of-jesus-christ-becoming-hindu-and-his-death-in-kashmir/

    ..and they have science on their side - they argue for the big bang!

    http://www.godrealized.com/essays/5-Proofs-God-exists.html

  • still thinking
    still thinking

    Jesus was a Hindu? LOL

  • still thinking
    still thinking

    LOL...I've started to only read rawes response Mrs J, I can see whats been said by the way he answers, he deciphers the actual response nicely. Much easier.

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