Yes iceltic. One believes he's Christ and the other believes he's the faithful and discreet slave.
FINALLY! Can you prove God exists? If you can I won't ask again!
by punkofnice 544 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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iCeltic
Jesus... (So to speak)
That's quite insane.
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*lost*
Julia well done.
Me too, it's like love, we cannot explain it - it just is. Psycopaths on the other hand ....
So, are we saying ....
The Hebrews did not exist ?
Jesus did not exist ?
John the Baptist did not exist ?
The Apostle's did not exist ?
Jesus was not villified, tortured and crucified ?
The Early christians that were villified and tortured did not exist ?
They weren't burned alived to use as torches ?
They weren' put in the arena's and attacked and eaten alive by lions etc ?
They did not relay a powerful message given to them ?
A Word ruling Empire was not founded off the back's off that message and corrupted ?
The Bible does not exist, no such thing as 'scriptures ?
We are not actually in the year 2013, 2,013 yrs after the death of the man Jesus ?
yes, much to ponder.
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iCeltic
None of those things prove that god exists. Not one. I can also spout a lot of things from the bible, it doesn't prove the existence of god. People existing doesn't prove that god exists.
hearing a message from someone who people say was the son of god doesn't prove that he was the son of god or that god exists.....I could go on.
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iCeltic
Punkofnice asked the questions:
1. What evidence is there that god exists as described in YOUR holy book or ideology without the need to use the book?
2. Your proof must be OBVIOUS for me to see in my every day life.
The questions are pretty specific.
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GromitSK
I can't see the objection to iceltic's question. Even if the gospel accounts were written by the people claimed, and I understand there is some doubt about this, it is simply their testimony. Testimony is only as good as the credibility of the witness. For the New Testament:
1 can we even be sure who wrote the testimony and when?
2 could the writers have any motives for lying?
3 could they be mistaken? - some of the testimony is itself hearsay
4 the Jesus character didn't seem to have any objections to proving himself to genuine sceptics eg Thomas. Why would he now?
The answers given so far to iceltic look like evasions to me.
I do not see how anyone can put such faith in a document about which there seems to much uncertainty. Whilst a person is free to believe what they want, convincing others is a different thing. As far as the bible's testimony about itself is concerned: "we'll they would say that wouldn't they?". It's like accepting a tobacco company's marketing about its own product as the undiluted truth.
Before using the bible as proof of God, one must first establish that the Bible is what it claims to be.
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punkofnice
Hi Van, I can see you are very sincere and I respect you for that.
The story of Job is a very interesting one I agree.
Job was like JWs in that he lived in fear of god and thought his ‘works’ would assuage god’s anger. (What must his god have been like?)
My problems with it is that god ultimately acts or fails to act. He gazes on in a very hard, unloving manner. He is indifferent to the demise of Job’s family and animals. Job does get a new woman and possessions but any normal human would still feel cut to the core about the loss of his family unless he’s an inhuman monster.
For this reason I hope that the story of Job is just a fable. Again, I have yet to see evidence that Job even existed outside of the bible. It does nothing in my mind for the credibility of a loving god. It simply attests to what a vile, disgusting and psychotic creature god would have to be if he exists.
How many Atheists try to discredit the Bhagavad- Gita?
I would say that if the Gita was brought into the thread then it would get a bashing. However, we live in predominantly Christian countries so the Gita being brought to the table is a slimmer chance. I personally think the Gita is gobbldey gook.
Personally my life experience only gives me reason to believe in blind chance. That some people are lucky and others are not.
I have to wear my heart on my sleeve here guys. I believed in Jehovah for 50 years then found out it was all a lie. So I went to a Baptist church here in the UK and they were wonderful people and I felt as if I’d finally found god and Jesus. It was truly a wonderful experience.
BUT......................
After examining the evidence I was horrified to have to admit to myself that there may not be a god after all and that I’d been living in delusion.
All hope of surviving death and living in a better place has been stripped from my life. I’d love to believe again but after being fooled all these years I won’t get fooled again. I cannot afford to squander my emotions and life on hearsay and mere faith. I'd sooner die in honesty than die in a vain hope.
Thanks iCeltic for re stating my original questions…..even I had forgotten them.
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new hope and happiness
punk can i prove you exist? can i prove i exist?
i think belivers instinctivy feel God whilst non belivers rationalize God...but can we prove God doesnt exist?
This thread has " proved God exists" in the minds of belivers and therefore he exists..our minds dont work that way.
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punkofnice
NH&H - I can prove I exist to myself. The evidence you have is my thread (granted you don't know the real me but the evidence shows there is a person called Punkofnice as the OP). I believe your user ID exists as I see actual evidence commensurate with my experience in life as tested and re tested before.
i think belivers instinctivy feel God whilst non belivers rationalize God...but can we prove God doesnt exist?
This I see as a 2 edged sword. Why should some 'instinctively feel God'? This shows a flaw in god's communication. Why doesn't god manifest in such a way that it's obvious and beyond doubt to everyone if he really cares?
That we can neither prove god exists or not shows that if god does exist he/it/them/she is useless at communication and really showing compassion and love to us.
I understand what you are saying....are we all in the Matrix?
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new hope and happiness
punk ..someday i will watch the Matrix...
Anyway God is dead for me...but not forgotten or why would i even bother reading and responding on this thread? Personally i think its impossible to go through life only looking at oneself and being only egotistic...we need more ...humunity is great but to complicated...And as for God i gave him my sincere best in the W. T ....now i realize i wont amount to much only by those who wont accept me as i am...and God is outside my understanding and sensibility but maybe a mystical experience will happen...maybe i will once again be able in my heart to prove God exists.
As for today i really hope not, not with out being dead ...then i will happily be proed wrong.