by MsGrowingGirl20 643 Replies latest members private
Cofty,
Yes I do want to have hope.
But I also feel that I was baptised because I believed. I feel I have had help in my life. To abandon my faith I would feel I betrayed God. My conscience wouldn't allow that.
Yes I think I can adjust my views in certain area's as long as I don't lose my faith in the resurrection of Christ. I have adjusted my views already in leaving the Witnesses.
So, God/Jesus/etc. still won't share any real insights....
Apparently some of us atheists are afraid to examine evidence for fear we will discover God (despite that we keep asking for it and never getting it)....
The south pacific volcano God is protecting ST and her house .....
The Christchurch earthquake God is rubbish....
Loz thinks atheists are both destroying peoples faith AND helping people have faith because we're just really bad atheists....
So, no change, then?
tec wrote:
If something can NOT be known by NON-supernatural means... how can it be verified objectively?
It can be verified objectively by using a process like EP's T-shirt experiment. Eliminate any possibility of mundane or conventional (i.e. non-supernatural) means of learning the insight or information. Use a 3rd party to verify that you have no way of knowing his T-shirt color by any conventional means. Then, ask Christ to tell you the color.
I realize that Christ may not want to tell you the color, so we may not be able to do the T-shirt experiment. Still, you are being asked to share -something- -anything- that Christ has told you that cannot be known by natural, conventional, everyday, mundane, or even complicated scientific (still non-supernatural) methods. Essentially, a bona-fide miracle.
It can be verified objectively by using a process like EP's T-shirt experiment.
Exactly.
Just in case Tec ever cracks and actually does the T shirt experiment, it wont be any good as it's guessable, the colour choice is limited to what, maybe 6 or 7 common colours so a lucky guess is far too likely and then what..? You'd never hear the end of her Lords abilities will you.
So it needs to be more exact, the slogan on the t shirt as well as the make and size and colour please. That is many orders of magnitude harder to guess and even then it proves nothing unless it is delivered error free many times over.
Aint gonna happen is it and we know why, ...because it can't.
So it needs to be more exact, the slogan on the t shirt as well as the make and size and colour please. That is many orders of magnitude harder to guess and even then it proves nothing unless it is delivered error free many times over.
That's close to what it is. The size wasn't included, but the color, pattern, type of shirt (tshirt, oxford, golf shirt) and any slogan was included. It was appreviated the tshirt challenge.
Jesus won't step up to the plate on a single swing, so yeah, let's make it three. Jesus should be able to hit three home runs in a row, right?
*Updated* In fact, I might just make a thread with the challenge formalized and out there.
So, God/Jesus/etc. still won't share any real insights....
"Jesus," perhaps, E (good morning to you!). God (the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies) and Christ (the HOLY One of Israel, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah)... not so true. They have granted me to share MANY real insights. For instance, what happens, where people go, and what they do when they die. Care to discuss that?
Apparently some of us atheists are afraid to examine evidence for fear we will discover God
Apparently. Actually, in many cases.
(despite that we keep asking for it and never getting it)....
Okay, one more time: what are you asking for... and WHOM are you asking it FROM? If you say "God," I must respond, "WHAT/WHICH God?". If you say "Jesus,"... well, C's mental state notwithstanding, you know what I going to respond there. So, again... WHOM are you asking it from? Thus, far, I haven't seen where a single one of you can even utter the name accurately. So, whom? If it isn't the One I'm speaking of... who is it? And if whomever it is you ARE asking isn't answering/responding... why... and why do you keep asking [him]??? The word "illogical" comes to MY mind, right now...
The south pacific volcano God is protecting ST and her house .....
The Christchurch earthquake God is rubbish....
You never have or ever will hear anything like either of those from me, E, and you know it.
It can be verified objectively by using a process like EP's T-shirt experiment. Eliminate any possibility of mundane or conventional (i.e. non-supernatural) means of learning the insight or information. Use a 3rd party to verify that you have no way of knowing his T-shirt color by any conventional means. Then, ask Christ to tell you the color. I realize that Christ may not want to tell you the color, so we may not be able to do the T-shirt experiment. Still, you are being asked to share -something- -anything- that Christ has told you that cannot be known by natural, conventional, everyday, mundane, or even complicated scientific (still non-supernatural) methods. Essentially, a bona-fide miracle.
The thing is, dear IO (good morning and peace to you!), E and I have already gone down that path. Twice. He actually demanded such an "experiment" twice. The result of the first one caused him to go quiet for awhile, but others on the board to cry "foul!" when he (much) later brought it. Mind you, he never DENIED it, but only took issue that I shared it (which he had asked me to do). He then harassed and harangued about it. The result of the second remains unknown. He asked such a question... which I tried to avoid (as with the first one, but he wouldn't have it) but ultimately responded to. To date, nothing from him either denying OR confirming. Nothing. Read my lips: no thing. Yay OR nay. Well, that's not actually true: he has spent many a post stating how he asked about it. But doing so as if he never received a response. And no, he can't say he didn't know he received a response because I stated when he did... and have many times since.
So, MY question is how do WE know that HE will be honest about the result? You say "use a 3rd party to verify". What 3rd party? And even so, how do we know THAT person would be honest, as well?
In truth, this is nothing more than a game. Folks pose questions, demand answers, GET answers, then either deny that they asked... or that answers were provided. Or that the answer(s) provided are accurate. Doesn't matter: they don't REALLY want to know. And now you're coming up with the same "suggestion" of an "experiment." Again, how many times would such have to take place? Once? Twice? Ten times? A hundred? Even so, each time it would be denied that the question was answered ("It was a coincidence!" "You guessed!" "You couldn't possibly know that about [whatever] so you must have heard/read me say it somewhere!" "That's not true!"... whatever).
It is the same with this as with anything, dear one - atheism, creation, evolution, God: people believe what they WANT to believe... and DON'T believe what they don't WANT to. Regardless and even in spite of the evidence.
And that truly is the bottom line: what do you WANT? If you WANT to NOT believe in God, Christ, etc., then there is absolutely NOTHING another can say to or show you that will change your mind! Nothing. Not even an empirical miracle! How do I know that? Because it never HAS! Israel saw the plagues... with their own eyes! Did that change their lack of faith? Nope. Many saw the miracles performed by Christ... with their own eyes! Did that change their lack of faith? Nope. They didn't WANT to believe, resolve their lack of faith. They WANTED to NOT believe, in spite of what they saw with their OWN eyes, heard with their OWN ears. And so these "received"... what they TRULY "asked" for... in their hearts! Regardless of what their mouths said!
And it works just the opposite: someone might say, with their mouth, "I don't believe; I WON'T believe"... but in their hearts, really DO wish to know. Saul of Tarsus was one such person. Nebuchadnezzar another. Many are like that. Many even testify to that ("I never believed in God before, but He showed ME that He exists!"). But those who have not had such an experience come along and go, "No. That wasn't God... and you're delusional." Because THEY haven't been so blessed.
Talk about your "Believe as I do or something's wrong with YOU" WTBTS baggage.
Such ones ARE afraid. They're afraid that if anyone listens so as to perhaps even entertain that they CAN hear, see, know God (and Christ), they will necessarily find themselves right back in the WTBTS or something similar, another religion, what have you. That IS fear... and it's understandable.
But the truth is that there is only something TO fear... if you don't know who's leading you. In such a case, one SHOULD fear... because they are heading toward a pit. IF, however, one KNOWS the One leading them... and that One is Christ, the HOLY One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH, one knows that there is NOTHING... AT ALL... to fear. Because that One NEVER lies... and leads solely out of love. TRUE love, not man's love. Love that says I will not only give my life for you before you ever came into existence, before you ever sinned... against ANYONE, let along God... but EVEN if you someday become my enemy.
Even for his enemies, the Door still stands open. OUR hope, as members of the Body of Christ, is that anyone TRULY wishing and thirsting will GET that truth... HEAR of it (from us AND him)... and "enter." That's really it, really all.
Thus, may those WITH ears to hear, hear, and get the sense of the things we share. May those who don't have such ears be GIVEN them, if they truly wish them. May both USE such ears to hear... when the Spirit and the Bride say to THEM:
"Come! Take 'life's water'...the holy spirit of God... His breath, blood, and seed... by means of which any who DO so partake CAN hear the One who dispenses this 'water', the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah)... by means ANY who wish to can come to know the TRUE God, the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies... because it THIS "knowing" (and knowing OF or ABOUT... or "taking in knowledge of") means everlasting life... FREE!"
Peace... to any who can receive it.
A slave of Christ,
SA
They have granted me to share MANY real insights.
You never have or ever will hear anything like either of those from me, E, and you know it.
It's not all about you.
The thing is, dear IO (good morning and peace to you!), E and I have already gone down that path. Twice. He actually demanded such an "experiment" twice. The result of the first one caused him to go quiet for awhile, but others on the board to cry "foul!" when he (much) later brought it.
Go quiet for a while? Huh? Jesus (or anyone operating in his name) has never stepped up and accepted the challenge.
So, MY question is how do WE know that HE will be honest about the result? You say "use a 3rd party to verify". What 3rd party? And even so, how do we know THAT person would be honest, as well?
I'll make a thread on it! Jesus (or people operating in his name) can step up there. That way, in the future, when it gets brought up again and no one has stepped up, we'll have a single thread to reference.