An interesting article on scientific explanations of near-death / out-of-body experiences

by cedars 95 Replies latest jw friends

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  cantleave

  Thanks for the link Cofty....
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  designs

  You'd think if they went to the Other Side they'd at least bring back a souvenir.
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  cofty

  Haters gonna hate. - Cobaltcupcake

  Actually Harris the most "spiritual" atheist you could hope to read. Its a very well written and reasonable article.

  Alexander is making unscientific assertions and using his MD credentials to give himself some credibility.
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  unstopableravens

  i have always been weary of these storys,interseting paul had something close, (2 corn 12:1-4) i ones were people say they are above the ambo looking through the roof.
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  GromitSK

  I read the summary of this book and couldn't see any signs of veridical evidence of survival in it (the summary and reviews on amazon). I suppose it is interesting that he is a neurophysiologist of some sort but frankly the mind/brain relationship discussion is already to be found in so many places, I'm not sure what he can add from his subjective perspective. There are probably thousands of similar reports of experiences out there. I think I'd be prepared to accept that he had some sort of (for him) significant experience however what that really means to everyone else I can't see. Maybe I would if I bought the book but it sounds hyped to me and that turns me off plus the reviews, even the positive ones, don't whet my appetite.

  On the other hand I can't really see his motive; He appears to be successful in his field. Presumably he is well-off financially. I can't see how this can possibly enhance his professional credentials. Who knows?
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  sabastious

  Near death experiences are next to impossible to study because of moral and ethical standards. The proof that they are real instead of imagined lies within the testimony of people who have experienced NDE's. What you will find is a plethora of stories that could NOT have been imagined. Such as seeing things that DID happen that could be verified. Like while in the out of body experience seeing someone wearing specific clothing and then after waking up finding that person who is wearing the correct clothing even though you never actually saw that person wearing those clothes. However this kind of proof relies soley on the testimony of humans which means it can never be 100% verified by the outside world. It can never be accepted Science until it's reproducible in a controlled environment, but this particular truth goes through human death and therefore renders many tests outside of an acceptable moral scale. Regardless, the people involved ALWAYS remain believers the rest of their lives. They have to, to deny it was real would be a bold face lie to them. What happened simply couldn't have been there own power or else we'd have to admit that at least some humans have telepathic powers that are trigged during NDE's.

  Bottom line: the afterlife is real and it would simply be best to get used to it. It's actually a very good thing that every living human can and should be encouraged about. But oh wait, we live in the world of DISCOURAGEMENT. Hope never sells, only doomsday. All the lonely people, where do they all belong?

  -Sab
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  OnTheWayOut

  while the book might be genuine belief, I think it is more likely that it is just a successful attempt to write a best seller.

  From the quoted article:
  But the fundamental reason that hallucinations -- whatever their cause or modality--seem so real is that they deploy the very same systems in the brain that actual perceptions do.

  I try to understand that our brains are tricky places and even the most reasonable intelligent people can be tricked by their own brain into believing OBE'S & NDE'S & communication with spirits of some kind.

  It is not that different from a JW wanting to believe the teachings and ignoring true evidence and solid facts.
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  GromitSK

  @sabastious - whilst I would agree there is a lot of testimony supporting an afterlife relating to NDEs, your simply stating it is true so 'get used to it' isn't really going to persuade those who don't share your view, as I'm sure you realise. Just because a person really believes their experience was what they think it was, doesn't make it so. Even if it is 'so', without some independent corroborating evidence, the experience is unlikely to have much evidential value to those who haven't experienced something similar, not should it IMHO.
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  dazed but not confused

  Bottom line: the afterlife is real and it would simply be best to get used to it.

  
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  sabastious

  @sabastious - whilst I would agree there is a lot of testimony supporting an afterlife relating to NDEs, your simply stating it is true so 'get used to it' isn't really going to persuade those who don't share your view, as I'm sure you realise. Just because a person really believes their experience was what they think it was, doesn't make it so. Even if it is 'so', without some independent corroborating evidence, the experience is unlikely to have much evidential value to those who haven't experienced something similar, not should it IMHO.

  I am not looking to convince anyone, the data speaks for itself. However personal experience is a type of truth that can be extremely difficult to prove to other people. For example, if one person has an NDE and floats into a nearby McDonalds seeing a woman behind the counter with a necklace adorned with a turquoise dragon that person has a legitimate and scientific way to verify the experience was real. If they can find the woman with the necklace they HAVE empirical evidence that their experience interacted with reality. The problem is that they cannot convince anyone else that the experience was legitmate. Because it cannot be reproduced laws like Occam's Razor will be used as a scientific scapegoat from the eternally skeptical. The fact is that one can BE a scientist and gather the evidence while remaining incapable of empirically demonstrating it to others. Such a scenario doesn't rob the scientist of credibility, but many deem that the case. These ones are in error.

  This all serves as a perfect example of just how limited the human perspective on the universe truly is. It shows that actual reality, the one where an immaterial realm exists, is beyond our intellectual grasp. We can EXPERIENCE it and still not be able to DEMONSTRATE it. Such is with God and the Spiritual Realm. To rule out the possibility of an afterlife merely because of skepticism is an epic case of hubris.

  -Sab