Ironically "My Sweet Lord" by George Harrison is playing right now...

by noonehome 20 Replies latest jw experiences

  • noonehome
    noonehome

    Hello everybody.

    I’ll try to keep this as concise as possible. But you know how it is…

    Basically I’ve been lurking for around 8 months or so, but never had the courage or desire to post anything. But I feel like I am reaching a critical point, and would really appreciate some insight. Or at least to get some stuff off my chest. That’s probably more what this is about for me right now. Anyways, in the words of Doctor Evil, I’m sure my story is “pre-tty stan-dard really.”

    I’m 20, and was raised in. Had a pretty messed up childhood when it comes to my Dad. Won’t get into that; suffice to say he was out of the picture when I was a toddler and then for good since I was 9. He was at one time an elder, and is still wanted by the police in my country. There, good enough. So…

    I’ve always had what I like to call repressed doubts…you know, the feeling and even knowledge that there are things that just don’t make any sense, yet you shrug it off and tell yourself that we walk by faith not by sight. That you’re just not knowledgeable enough about it and that one-day you’ll be able to explain those things. After all, look how many intelligent thinking people have chosen to be in the ‘truth’, right? I am fascinated now by the concept of cognitive dissonance.

    Probably one of the first things that got me questioning as a little kid was thinking about God killing seemingly innocent people in Armageddon and dealing brutally with people in the bible. You see, I can’t stand being aware of others being hurt. I even used to try and save all the worms from the sidewalk after it rains.

    Then I started thinking critically about the flood and other things I was taught that science tends to disagree with. As I grew I kept expecting ‘new light’ to reveal that the flood and other biblical stories were mere fables meant to teach lessons.

    This is about when I started hearing the odd thing about the earth, the universe, evolution. Evolution seemed ludicrous at first and I felt this pious satisfaction in believing I was smarter than all the scientists because I knew the ‘truth’, despite being completely uneducated on the matter. You know what I mean.

    I’ve always been interested in astronomy and cosmology and was drawn to books and documentaries about such things. I started to have a better understanding and appreciation of the theories, and was humbled along the way, but there were many still I had to constantly try and disprove. I successfully staved off believing in evolution and somewhat succeeded in making the creation account in Genesis work for me despite apparent errors, until in high school when I enrolled in biology (by choice). It was then I started seeing the evidence and the logic, not to mention the beauty of how the world works. I accepted microevolution but could not accept macroevolution, as this would defy what the bible said.

    During all this there was allot of pressure from the elders in my hall for me to get baptized. I didn’t want to until I had proven to myself fully that it was the truth, but gave into the pressure and judgment of others. So when I was just about to turn 17 I got baptized. I figured that it must be the truth, and that I would fully prove it to myself one day. At the time I felt pretty good, and I really did believe despite the doubts. I wanted to.

    The next thing to do was pioneer. I auxiliaried a whole bunch and became more comfortable at the door, but I never had the desire to pioneer full time. I didn’t believe I was good enough for such a weighty responsibility. I mean these are peoples lives…I didn’t want ME to be their only chance. I prayed for the desire and skill, and kept working at it, but it never really came. After graduating I wasn’t ready to pioneer and had no freaking clue what I was supposed to do. I had worked through school doing a trade, and I knew that it was not something I wanted to continue. In fact, I didn’t want to be in the trades at all. What I wanted was to be able to think and create and explore…get into the film industry or a scientific field or pursue my art. Experience beautiful things...travel…fall in love. But these are mostly worldly goals, right? So I dismissed these things as unrealistic and unattainable. Maybe one day I’d get to work in the art or film department at bethel. Cool.

    So I started working at a warehouse for a well-known shipping company. The job was really terrible (EARLY in the morning…sorting HEAVY packages…5 days a week… pitiful money) but the people I worked with were pretty awesome. I’ve always considered the vast majority of ‘worldly’ people to be good. But, for the first time ever, I refrained from revealing to anyone I was a witness, and with much guilt I even hung out with coworkers on a couple occasions. Heck they got me a cake on my birthday and stopped work to sing me the song and all that. Whoops, I had some cake.

    Around this time my best–friend and role model, a strong pioneer brother with a good reputation, left the country. He lived at home and worked for his dad doing a job he hated to save money to be able to leave for a while. I think people thought he went to serve where the need is greater but I knew he went to do some soul searching. I dropped him off at the airport and he seemed a little frazzled.

    After a while I started hearing things from his parents (who I’m also close to..I worked for his dad with him for a number of years ) about him not doing well spiritually, and then that he’s being what they described as “an idiot right now.” Then his dad, who is an elder, approached me after one meeting and asked me if he had tried to talk to me about “certain things” and brainwash me. That he had some very “weird ideas”. I said no he hadn’t talked to me about any of that, which was the truth. Then his dad said not to talk with him at all, to cut association, that his son is dangerous. This left me puzzled and actually drove me to send my friend an email, urging him to disclose what was going on. After a couple days I got a long email explaining very tactfully that basically he was now an atheist.

    We continued to talk about stuff over the next few months…about things that I never thought was possible to talk or even think about. It was scary and confusing. I started doing allot of unrestrained research, and read allot too, including C.O.C., Captives of a Concept, Greatest Show on Earth, The Bible Unearthed, etc. etc. etc. Still working my way through. I can’t tell you how freaky it is to pickup an ‘apostate’ book or go to an ‘apostate’ website because deep down, you know you will learn the truth about the truth, and that what you learn cannot be unlearned, and there’s a real prominent sense of doom. Like a massive storm is forming above you.

    Now, I’ve always struggled with depression, but the can of worms I was opening really screwed me up. Outside appearances were relatively normal, but inside I was a mess. I was already questioning what direction I should take my life, and now I was more confused than ever. I decided I didn’t want to work in the warehouse for the rest of my life, that I had to do SOMETHING and I knew that it wasn’t pioneering…so I applied for college, and got in. Lots of people were obviously disappointed to learn I was going to college…. especially the course I was taking. They’d say stuff like “Um…interesting. Is it full-time? Oh it is? How many hours is that a week? Hmm. How long? 2 years? Wow that’s a LONG time. Are there many jobs after??? ” In other words… “you should become a plumber or a cleaner or a carpenter and focus on what is important. Don’t waste your time.”

    Soon I learned my buddy was coming home after being away for over 6 months. There were couple local needs parts around this time that were about reporting any wrongdoings of our brothers to the elders, even if it didn’t seem like a big deal thing, and of course the many dangers of apostates.

    A couple days before my friend was to arrive home it was announced that he was no longer one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. After that meeting the Coordinator (presiding overseer) and another elder took me into the back room to tell me how dangerous my friend was. I guess he had written a letter to the branch. I asked if any of them had read it. They said no. But they did say that he was poison, that he would not be allowed in the hall, that he was going to die in Armageddon, and that I should not ever have any contact whether it be in person or through text, email…etc. I just nodded.

    I told my friend that I would pick him up from the airport that Friday. Holy crap I was scared. When I picked him up I was so afraid someone was going to see us together, even though we’re in a big city. Thing is, when you’re a witness, especially a young one, there are tons of other witnesses that kind of knows who you are and would recognize you, even if you’ve never met them. I was also afraid of how ‘apostate’ he’d be. But he was exactly the same…we talked about the many stories and adventures he had had during his trip and joked and laughed and I felt relieved that he wasn’t trying to poison me. But still, it was obvious he was having a very difficult time with everything that was happening to him and I was really sorry for how he was being viewed and treated, simply for not believing.

    I helped him out with some stuff since he didn’t have a vehicle or anything, and his parents wanted nothing to do with him and would not have him in. I felt guilty and had to keep telling myself that there is nothing wrong with helping out a friend. I continued having regular contact and we have hung out often ever since he found a place to stay (in secret of course). He has since gone back to school to further his education at university.

    I’ve been really busy with college. No one there knows I’m a witness and I’ve tried to avoid as many parties and that kinda stuff as possible. Just because it feels so weird. I'm an outsider. The few gatherings I’ve gone to have left me feeling guilty even though I haven’t really engaged in any ‘brazzen conduct’. Heck, I even participated in a secret Santa with my class. When I was secretly wrapping the gift in my room, I realized how ridiculous it was to feel so guilty for giving a friend of mine a gift. My present came in a big red gift bag with a picture Santa Claus himself acting all jolly and whatnot. Inside was a big red Santa hat with large antlers and loud bells. Everyone wanted me to put it on, so I did, and everyone starts taking pictures. There was a tree in the room too so everyone gathered around it for a group photo. There I was with my obnoxious hat standing in front of a freaking Christmas tree with all these ‘pagans’. Those pictures would be pretty incriminating in the wrong hands haha. I thought the situation I was in was pretty hilarious and got a kick out of it, but a small part of me wanted to die.

    During my winter break I’ve had time to be away from all the ‘worldly influences’ as it were, and have me some ol ‘good association’…. with my friends who are witnesses. I value my friendship with these ones very very much. I love my friends so much and think they are great people. Some witnesses I spend time with would be considered by some as ‘bad association’ still, and it saddens me to think that perhaps once I would have viewed some as ‘weak’. I’m very lucky to be surrounded with such great people. Even if they don’t feel the same way I do, I love these people. I say that because I think so highly of others, but I’m extremely self-deprecating and have a hard time imagining that anyone enjoys my company, despite liking me. Sometimes this really gets me down and I don’t know what to do about it, I know it must mostly be in my head. I’ve resorted to drinking every once in a while just because I’ve needed to escape my feelings and it seems like the only tangible thing that works (currently). It’s not serious; I know lots of kids my age who regularly test the boundaries of alcohol poisoning every weekend. But still, I don’t like the idea of using alcohol to feel better when I’m down. And I mean way down. I know that it can be a slippery slope so I’m careful.

    I’ve been decently busy in service this month with some people my age. That really makes it easier: working in service with your friends. Its something I haven’t’ had in a while seeing as how most of my buddies I grew up with that motivated me to go in service are either in bethel or married or –ahem – apostate. My hours have really been down the past 6 months and I no longer operate the sound console, set up and handle the mics, work in the magazine department, or give prayers at meetings. Oh well. I’ve been talked to by worried elders and have been urged to increase my hours. So, since no longer being busy with school during Christmas break, I’ve been more active in the door-to-door game. Which is kind of weird to do considering the past year and the stuff that’s been going through my head. Maybe it was because I made arrangements with a really amazing sister from another hall that I am good friends with (she is my age, and…single…) and worked all day long a couple times. Its weird how everything just kind of comes back to you…if you're mentally 'out' but go through the motions again. I actually found service easier since I felt less pressure to save someone’s life. I’ve been out a few times since and placed a decent amount, while being extremely careful not to be pushy or preachy or doctrinal, and respecting everyone’s time and thoughts. At the same time I’ve spent more time with a few certain someones I really “appreciate” (for lack of a better word). C’mon, I’m 20. Makes me think of that corny radio song “She’s so high” from the 90s. Jeez.

    If you’re still with me thanks allot. This is getting way longer than I’d planned. But here’s kind of the main point I’m trying to get at, after all the back-story:

    This past week I realized something. I’ve experienced moments where I’ve felt happier then I have in a long time. Not because of what I've been doing, but because of who I've been with. One thing that I keep hearing from witnesses is this: “Even if it’s not the truth, it’s a good life to live,” and “there isn’t anything else in the world,” and “I’d rather have something to hope in than nothing at all.” You’ve head all this. One guy my age I’ve become friends with and I respect allot said that he left for a while, lived a ‘worldly life’ and did allot of ‘bad’ things. But he came back because he felt it was all vanity, and because from what I can deduce he was very alone. He even told me that he had struggled with doubts, but again, he decided that even if it wasn’t the truth there wasn’t anywhere else for him. Is he right? It seems to be a common trend among ones who come back, to do so for people and relationships. Or for ones to stay.

    I would die if I lost the people I loved. They are really the only reason I care at all to be alive. I wouldn’t blame this feeling entirely on the situation I find myself in, although it doesn’t help. I’ve just had a really difficult time with depression and self-loathing my whole life, and it seems to get worse the older I get. But don’t worry, I’m not suicidal, I just find myself obsessed with thinking deeply about it - even if I believe I wouldn’t ever do it. It’s comforting for some reason to think about suicide, but then I think of how alone I’d be if I was dead…forever…and how I would hurt the people I love – the very things that keep me from leaving the organization. So here I am, 20, in this strange kind of limbo, trying to figure out what the hell kind of life I should live. It’s pretty pathetic for an idealist like myself.

    I feel an extreme disconnection from everyone, I always have…I get stuck in my own crammed head and can’t break out. But it’s getting worse the more I separate my mind from the ‘truth’. I don’t fit in with the world, and I don’t fit in with witnesses. I get so pissed off with myself and feel like I’m on the edge of a mental breakdown or something and no one has the slightest clue. I need to do something or I won’t make it at all.

    I live at home and I’m not in a position to move out unfortunately. Even if I was it’s complicated because I feel I need to be here for my mom. Hurting her would destroy me the most. So pretty much, I feel like I should just try and be the best witness I can be, even if I don’t believe in it. There are lots of places I’m finding answers, and that’s great. I still want to know and understand truth, and will continue to search and discover what it is as objectively as possible. But more importantly, I want to be HAPPY. If there are people IN that help me be happier…I think that’s something to seriously consider. I just don’t know. I don’t know if it’s possible to pretend. I keep thinking about a book I read a couple months ago, you may have heard of it: 1984…one of the best books I’ve ever read. Amazingly relatable.

    Sorry again for the length, but this was a LONG time coming now. I want to be clear on something though: I’m not mad at the organization/cult/…. whatever you’d like to call it. I’m mad at myself for not being able to just get with life, and for caring so much for people who probably don’t give two sh!ts about me.

    If anyone reads any of this, I don’t want the thread to be an "is it the truth is it a lie” thing. Rather, are any of you staying in, even if you don’t believe? Why? How do you feel about your life? Is it worth all the silent pain? What, if anything, would you do different? If you’ve left, how much does it still hurt? Do I need a lobotomy? What's a good job? Could a bird be tickled by a feather???

    Sorry, I feel really self-absorbed posting all this, even though it’s the short version. Thanks so much everyone, and I wish you all the absolute best in the coming years. Wow it's really tough to press submit. Ok here goes....

  • cantleave
    cantleave

    Let me Welcome to the board.

    Interesting story, I see a lot of similarities to my own. I tried to make the most of the organisation even though I had many doubts. To the point I stayed in until I was 42, became an elder and ruined 9 and 7 years of my kid's childhood.

    Whatever you think, being in a cult can never be a good life. Yes there are instant friends and a routine that keeps you busy. But you will never be truly free, your friendships will always be conditional and you will be constantly judged on what you don't do.

    You are young, your life is ahead of you, go and live it!

  • bsmart
    bsmart

    Welcome, the good thing is you are young and have a clue... Getting your education is wonderful and you know it. Dont let anyone try and persuade you otherwise.

    It seems that staying quiet about the religion is what you need to do for now... That you care about your mom is not a bad thing. Feel her out a little her thoughts about shunning. She brought up a good son... (speaking as a mother here)

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    Welcome to the forum noonehome

    Could have been little more concise in your fist introductory Post but its kind of typical by people of your age who are just starting

    to discover the truth about the truth.

    Honestly though to get a complete understanding of this religion, you really have to research the history of it right back

    from its very beginning. Eventually you'll have to decide for yourself if god really did choose this religion as they said so

    in 1919 or was that intensionally said out of drive to create a sense of viability toward the WTS. literature publications.

    Study up on people such as J Rutherford the guy who once the president of the WTS. and created the name of the JWS.

    “Even if it’s not the truth, it’s a good life to live,”

    I've heard that myself and one has to realistically think about that statement with a clear objective mind.

    Is this really the case ?, citing the fact that many people indiscriminately lost their lives by following the instructional guidance from the WTS.

    such as no vaccinations, no organ transplants , no blood transfusions.

    or the fact that the WTS. had created deceiving and manipulative exploiting doctrines which it built around itself as religious publishing house.

    Insinuating that people are wasting their time receiving higher education because the world is going to end soon or as it was recently said by a

    GB member in his talk, that obtaining higher education is like putting a gun to your head and pulling the trigger.

    Is this " The Truth " or deceptive manipulations from men trying to control people's lives for their own personal circumventing reasons.

    These are some of things that your going have to consider in the long run.

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Interesting story. Yes, i read it all. I'm not going to tell you to get out of it, just make a couple of general observations.

    First, yes, lots of jws are good people. I still miss some jw friends that i haven't seen for decades.

    Second, you mentioned one jw friend who felt very alone when out of the org. That is normal. Inside of cults (yes, i believe the wt is), there tends to be a closeness among the members. That isn't just for the jws, it's also true for scientologists, some political movements, moonies, etc.

    Your depression and drinking. They are symtoms, imo. You seem to have a compartmentalised life. Your mind is compartmentalised. You have multiple lives. Maintaining all those barriers between those different lives is taking its toll. It takes a lot of energy and vigilance. How long can you keep going before the dams start to break?

    You likely need someone who you can confide in to talk these things out, work these things out in your own mind. Imo, the ultimate would be to integrate all of it into one life. However, that can take yrs. Of course, you don't want to lose your family. You risk loosing firends, along the way. You need to find your true self. Once you have, you need to be true to yourself. It all takes time and honesty. And, it will cost. Everything has costs. You can accomplish anything for which you are willing to bear the cost.

    S

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    Read through these particular warning signs of a destructive religious cult and see if you can see any comparisons with the JWS organization.

    I think you'll agree that you can.

    Warning signs of a destructive cult

    Do you know someone in a destructive cult?
    Warning signs!

    Anyone could attack a group they disagree with by unfairly labeling it a destructive cult. How would you know whether it really were such a cult or not? Isn't there an objective method to evaluate groups for cultic tendencies? Yes. The following early warning signs can help you reasonably determine whether or not a group is likely to be a destructive cult, and if you should be concerned about a friend, coworker, or loved one being involved with it.

    The main reason that the following destructive cult tactics are so damaging to both the individual and society is because they debilitate rationality and reduce empathy. Rationality and empathy are indispensable in making good personal and social decisions. History is littered with personal and social catastrophes where a lack of rationality and lack of empathy were its core causes.

    Ask yourself if the following criteria apply to the group you are concerned about.
    1. A destructive cult tends to be totalitarian in its control of its members' behavior. Cults are likely to dictate in great detail not only what members believe, but also what members wear and eat, when and where members work, sleep, and bathe, and how members think, speak, and conduct familial, marital, or sexual relationships.

    2. A destructive cult tends to have an ethical double standard. Members are urged to be obedient to the cult, to carefully follow cult rules. They are also encouraged to be revealing and open in the group, confessing all to the leaders. On the other hand, outside the group they are encouraged to act unethically, manipulating outsiders or nonmembers, and either deceiving them or simply revealing very little about themselves or the group. In contrast to destructive cults, honorable groups teach members to abide by one set of ethics and act ethically and truthfully to all people in all situations.

    3. A destructive cult has only two basic purposes: recruiting new members and fund-raising. Altruistic movements, established religions, and other honorable groups also recruit and raise funds. However, these actions are incidental to an honorable group's main purpose of improving the lives of its members and of humankind in general. Destructive cults may claim to make social contributions, but in actuality such claims are superficial and only serve as gestures or fronts for recruiting and fund-raising. A cult's real goal is to increase the prestige and often the wealth of the leader.

    4. A destructive cult appears to be innovative and exclusive. The leader claims to be breaking with tradition, offering something novel, and instituting the ONLY viable system for change that will solve life's problems or the world's ills. But these claims are empty and only used to recruit members who are then surreptitiously subjected to mind control to inhibit their ability to examine the actual validity of the claims of the leader and the cult.

    5. A destructive cult is authoritarian in its power structure. The leader is regarded as the supreme authority. He or she may delegate certain power to a few subordinates for the purpose of seeing that members adhere to the leader's wishes. There is no appeal outside his or her system to a greater system of justice. For example, if a schoolteacher feels unjustly treated by a principal, an appeal can be made to the superintendent. In a destructive cult, the leader claims to have the only and final ruling on all matters.

    6. A destructive cult's leader is a self-appointed messianic person claiming to have a special mission in life. For example, leaders of flying saucer cults claim that beings from outer space have commissioned them to lead people away from Earth, so that only the leaders can save them from impending doom.

    7. A destructive cult's leader centers the veneration of members upon himself or herself. Priests, rabbis, ministers, democratic leaders, and other leaders of genuinely altruistic movements focus the veneration of adherents on God or a set of ethical principles. Cult leaders, in contrast, keep the focus of love, devotion, and allegiance on themselves.

    8. A destructive cult's leader tends to be determined, domineering, and charismatic. Such a leader effectively persuades followers to abandon or alter their families, friends, and careers to follow the cult. The leader then takes control over followers' possessions, money, time, and lives.

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    And please read through this list ...

    Ten warning signs of a potentially unsafe group/leader.
    1. Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.

    2. No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.

    3. No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.

    4. Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.

    5. There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.

    6. Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.

    7. There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader.

    8. Followers feel they can never be "good enough".

    9. The group/leader is always right.

    10. The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.

    Ten warning signs regarding people involved in/with a potentially unsafe group/leader.
    1. Extreme obsessiveness regarding the group/leader resulting in the exclusion of almost every practical consideration.

    2. Individual identity, the group, the leader and/or God as distinct and separate categories of existence become increasingly blurred. Instead, in the follower's mind these identities become substantially and increasingly fused--as that person's involvement with the group/leader continues and deepens.

    3. Whenever the group/leader is criticized or questioned it is characterized as "persecution".

    4. Uncharacteristically stilted and seemingly programmed conversation and mannerisms, cloning of the group/leader in personal behavior.

    5. Dependency upon the group/leader for problem solving, solutions, and definitions without meaningful reflective thought. A seeming inability to think independently or analyze situations without group/leader involvement.

    6. Hyperactivity centered on the group/leader agenda, which seems to supercede any personal goals or individual interests.

    7. A dramatic loss of spontaneity and sense of humor.

    8. Increasing isolation from family and old friends unless they demonstrate an interest in the group/leader.

    9. Anything the group/leader does can be justified no matter how harsh or harmful.

    10. Former followers are at best-considered negative or worse evil and under bad influences. They can not be trusted and personal contact is avoided.
  • noonehome
    noonehome

    Thanks cantleave. Wow I can't imagine how difficult it must've been for you. I'm very aware of the fact that it's probably only a matter of time before everything hits the fan. I agree with things being conditional, and I've seen those conditions messing up lives far too many times now.

    bsmart yes my mom saved my sister's and my own life. Couldn't imagine having a better mother. I've tested the waters a little and she is a very intelligent and thinking reasonable person. I don't think she would shun me, although I can't say the same for my sister and friends.

    Finklestein I have looked into the origins of the religion, but realize there is much more to learn. I'm only just beginning to get an idea of the whole picture, and I agree its important to understand it all. I'll get there. And yes the similarities to a cult are chilling. I've had elders tell me that it's a "good cult". But I know better than to drink any Kool-aid...

    Satanus I realize its long, its more to get it out. Your observations are very accurate with how I feel. I have to be so many different people that I'm losing touch with reality. I know I've got some tough decisions to make. But that is life.

    Thanks for you support and input everyone.

  • WTWizard
    WTWizard

    Nice to have the cake for a change. And the song My Sweet Lord is pretty safe--unless you are one of those witlesses. (Who can't handle anything that might even hint at another God.) The "Lord" they are talking about can be Jesus, God, or even Satan--so long as it isn't jehovah.

  • breakfast of champions
    breakfast of champions

    Beautiful post NOONEHOME. You exposed a whole hell of a lot there, and I really felt what you said.

    You've got me crying, you bastard!

    Again, beautifully expressed.

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