New Article regarding the Global Flood of Noah

by jwfacts 63 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • EntirelyPossible
    EntirelyPossible

    This does not need to include all the variations within each kind as DNA would allow for this variation within their kind after the flood. It is DNA that restricts reproduction between kind to kind but not within each kind.

    "Kind" is not any type valid taxonomy.

    A good example of this is the Canine.

    Canine is not a "kind".

    Also another Idea I've heard and it's very possible is young animals were taken rather then large mature animals. Younger animals would be stronger, healthier, more apt for procreation then older aged animal, and take up considerably less space.

    That is not any more plausible.

  • cofty
    cofty

    Ticker - Why do christians hate science so much?

    To believe in a global flood takes a spectacular degree of ignorance regarding geology.

  • cantleave
    cantleave

    Obviously off the start we can exclude fish,

    Why?? Different fish have evolved to live at different salinities, temperatures and depths. All these paremeters would destroyed by a worldwide flood!

    we can also exclude insects who absorb oxygen through their skin by use of tracheal tubes.

    Throw a butterfly into a pond for 150 days, see what happens.

    I think it's plausible there would be more then enough debris and dead carcasses floating around to allow them to live, eat, and breed.

    Ohh wow! Lets see you calculations and assumptions so I can verify your hypothesis.

    Another point to remember is that God asked Noah to bring animals onto the ark after "their kind".

    Please define "kind"

    This does not need to include all the variations within each kind as DNA would allow for this variation within their kind after the flood. It is DNA that restricts reproduction between kind to kind but not within each kind.

    Is this another paper I haven't read? Could you provide me with reference to this paper?

    Also another Idea I've heard and it's very possible is young animals were taken rather then large mature animals.

    How many baby animals would this be? How would they be fed? How quickly would they grow?

    Younger animals would be stronger, healthier, more apt for procreation then older aged animal

    I might be being a little silly here, but are not younger animals more exuberant and difficult to manage. Remember as you pointed out before 150 days is a long time to keep the animals and their food. Also how do you manage the hygeine of the living quarters? Do you know how many keepers their are in an average zoo?

    I will be sure to look those books up.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    I really like your point here because it echoes some points I brought up myself....

    This reasoning creates a catch-22. For a global flood to have any merit, the mountains had to be lower, as there is not enough water on earth to cover Mount Everest, whereas if mountains were lower than today, less water would be needed. However, this means after the flood there were monumental land transformations, with mountains being pushed up out of the floodwaters. Mountains usually grow at a rate of only millimetres per year, and even then the result of such movement can be earthquakes. For mountains to have grown thousands of metres over a rapid period, the resultant earthquake activity would have made the earth uninhabitable, in a state of constant, violent movement by earthquake and volcanic activity. What the waters had not destroyed, this continental reshaping would have, removing the majority of archaeological trace of life from any time prior to 4,400 years ago. Yet neither the Bible nor recorded history discusses such upheavals in the period after the flood. Earthquakes are a sign of the last days, yet modern quakes are almost inconsequential in comparison to what would be required for Everest to form after a flood just 4,400 years ago.

    The Himalayas arose via the northward collision of the Indo-Australian Plate into the Eurasian Plate, folding the ocean floor of the Tethys Ocean and lifting it along the convergent plate boundary (as opposed to other plate boundaries where subduction of the seafloor occurs). The majority of the uplifted rock, meanwhile, was eroded away via yearly monsoons to produce the many foothills and landforms south of the Himalayas. To have this all occur in just 4,000 years involves an impossible speed of plate movement. The distance the plate would have to move is in the thousands of miles (over 3,000 miles), which means that the Indo-Australian Plate must have a velocity measured in miles per year as opposed to the actual speed of 67 milimeters per year it presently has (as measured by GPS). Think about that. To put things into perspective, the 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake was the second most powerful quake ever recorded, 9.3. It produced one of the most devastating tsunamis in recorded history. The plate shifted about 20 meters in this event. That's it. How long does it take a person to walk 20 meters? "Hyper plate tectonics" would require plates moving thousands of miles very quickly. This would have, say, the Indian subcontinent move countless times faster than the seafloor could be laid down at the central and southeast Indian mid-ocean ridges. Such a speed would also posit an impossibly immense amount of friction at the collision boundaries, fracturing the lithosphere and triggering a flood basalt event that would have surely dwarfed the Siberian Traps. Nothing like that ever occurred, nor even daily 9.0+ earthquakes throughout recorded history, and there is no mechanism for such a ridiculously fast speed (certainly not normal mantle convection).

    The process was geologically slow, as it took yearly monsoonal erosion to produce all the foothills (which would constitute large mountains by any other standard) south of the Himalayan peaks. Don't just think of the amount of uplift required to push land up to the height of Mount Everest, for Everest itself was being eroded down as fast as it was being lifted up. According to surveys of the Himalayan plateau, a total of 5-9 km of vertical rock was eroded from the Tibetan Himalayas and about 12-25 km from the Higher Himalayas. Compare these figures with the height of Mount Everest, which is only 8.8 km in height. So the height equivalent of one or two Mount Everests have been eroded away throughout the whole plateau as the Himalayas were pushed up. And considering that under normal monsoonal conditions 2.9 mm is eroded away per year, it would take millions of years of weathering to accomplish this feat.

    The Society also likes to mention seashells in the Himalayas as evidence that the Flood covered the entire earth. This ignores the fact, as mentioned earlier, that the land uplifted into the Himalayas was originally oceanic crust of the Tethys Sea. Go to the supermarket and buy some pink Himalayan salt mined from halite evaporite deposits laid during the drying up of the enclosed sea.

  • Yan Bibiyan
    Yan Bibiyan

    Also another Idea I've heard and it's very possible...

    Yep, heard that one too - that god does not exist and the whole story is an embelished bronze age myth.

  • Balaamsass
    Balaamsass

    Very well done thank you!

    I think many base too much on Literal translation of old verbal traditions. They had an interesting show on Nat Geo or the History channel last week about the clovis people and human migrations.

    Seems 10-13,000 years ago during the last ice age sea levels were 100-200 ft lower according to some scientists. I imagine if a great great great grandchild asked what happened to GGGGrandpas village gramps might have said it was underwater..because of a great flood....and off to races he went with a story.

    Or perhaps a guy had an awesome boat with all his goats and sheep during a major flood on the Euphrates. Who knows..but obviously a REAL Global flood did not cover the world like Watchtower insists.

    Hell, if I had lived on the Jersey coast in 2012 and a grandkid said..Grandpa what happened to your house...I might say.....A great flood came and swept it all away....

  • Balaamsass
    Balaamsass

    I guess it also shows the folly of arguing about Biblical dates. 607 etc. Like using a tape measure to build a house once you know it is way off.

  • Ticker
    Ticker

    A good example of this is the Canine.

    Canine is not a "kind"

    Was just trying to bring out the point of different variations of dogs but probably should have been more specific in saying members of the dog genus - Canis. The illustration was merely to show you would not need to have all the different varieties of dogs but just one pair would have been suffice.

    If two created things can breed together then they are of the same kind. This is just a quick explanation and of course it's more complicated then this. Perhaps a better word or more acceptable to use is the baramin (Hebrew - bara-created, min-kind). An example is dogs can breed together whether dingoes, wolves, domesticated dogs, etc. but the end product is still a dog. I know they can't interbreed with the wider dog family Canidae but it still holds as a valid argument in my opinion for the ark containing the animals. Of course this flies against the view of evolution and that these variations of species have been around much longer then any Nochian flood, perhaps millions of years. Most of creation is going to bunt heads with evolution and that is alright.

    I wouldn't say Christians hate science and many embrace it as I do myself. I think science and God go hand in hand but of course that is the Christians view and will obviously meet friction with the atheist view.

    Anyways gotta check out for the weekend. Have a good one everyone.

  • cofty
    cofty

    I wouldn't say Christians hate science and many embrace it as I do myself.

    If you believe in a literal global flood you have utter contempt for everything related to science.

  • EntirelyPossible
    EntirelyPossible

    The illustration was merely to show you would not need to have all the different varieties of dogs but just one pair would have been suffice.

    This is also incorrect, a single breeding pair would be woefully short of the genetic variation required to start a sustainable population. They would die out very quickly.

    If two created things can breed together then they are of the same kind.

    "Kind" is a scientifically meaningless word. Additionally, tigers and lions can breed, but will almost always produce infertile offspring.

    Of course this flies against the view of evolution and that these variations of species have been around much longer then any Nochian flood, perhaps millions of years.

    I cannot parse what you are trying to say.

    Most of creation is going to bunt heads with evolution and that is alright.

    Evolution describes reality. Creationism describes nothing.

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