by refiners fire 39 Replies latest watchtower bible
They have stated that it is Jesus coming, then Jehovah, then Jesus, then Jehovah.
Will power.
News to me, care to elaborate?
You know.
You havent quoted any direct passages of scripture to back your position.Give me a chapter and verse proving that those at the end of the thousand years are not the resurrected wicked. Dead through the thousand years, and resurrected to face judgement.
You have not.
You cannot.
I cant put it plainer than that.
All you do is bluster.
You Know.
Give me a scripture.
Bible book, Chapter, verse, in refutation of my original contentions
in this thread. So that I can read it, in context, and see if it is correct.
Hows that????
Here is the contention again, just in case, with all your blustering, you have forgotten.
Revelation 20 verse 5 says;
"the rest of the dead lived not AGAIN until the thousand years were finished"
For them to live "again" they must have lived "previously'.
Hence, your contention that those ones at the end of the thousand years are ones who now 'live' because they have reached perfection, is incorrect.
For your contention to be correct, they would have to have been perfect at some previous time. Which they can never have been because all men since Adam have been born imperfect and died imperfect. (except Christ).
YK: you say
What the scripture says is that they do not come to LIFE until after the thousand years have ended. That coming to life has to do with being granted life as a result of a favorable judgment based upon what a person does during the 1,000 years when the 144,000 rule the earth.
Even if it is stated that they 'come to LIFE'...do JW's not teach that the phrase 'coming to life' after the 1,000 years means they are made perfect, incorruptable by God? And if that is so, how could they be tested by Satan?
Also, could you tell me where the bible says that those of the 2nd resurrection would be judged on what they did during the 1,000 years, rather than what they did in their life as Rev 20 and John 5:29 seems to indicate?
thanks
artful
Thanks quotes. This website is invaluable for guys like me that do not have a CDRom
Refiners & You Know - Enjoy
*** Watchtower 1955 July 1 p.387 Christ's Coming an Academic Question? ***
Jesus associated his return with the rewarding of his followers. Said he: "If I go my way and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will receive you home to myself, that where I am you also may be." And again: "Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is." Paul understood it this way, for he wrote: "I have fought the right fight, I have run the course to the finish, I have observed the faith. From this time on there is reserved for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will give me as a reward in that day, yet not only to me, but to all those who have loved his manifestation."-John 14:3; Rev. 22:12; 2 Tim. 4:7, 8, NW.[Emphasis added]
*** Watchtower 1967 November 15 p.680 Make Up Your Mind Now as to Whom You Will Serve ***
Jehovah God himself next speaks to John, revealing the critical situation, the extreme danger if any one of God's anointed ones becomes lax in the least way toward righteousness. Jehovah says: "Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is." -Rev. 22:12.[Emphasis added]
*** Watchtower 1978 October 1 p.15 "Keep on the Watch" ***
6 Also, in his final revelation concerning "the things that must shortly take place," Jesus again stresses the suddenness with which he comes:"I am coming to you quickly . . . I am coming quickly. Keep on holding fast what you have."-Rev. 2:16; 3:11.
"Look! I am coming quickly. . . . Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me. . . . Yes; I am coming quickly." (Rev. 22:7, 12, 20)
In response to these last expressions of our Master, surely each one of us joins with the apostle John in saying: "Amen! Come, Lord Jesus."
[Emphasis added]
*** Watchtower 1988 June 15 p.20 Detest Utterly the World's Disgraceful Course ***
Listen to how God himself describes, in his last recorded words in the Bible, the outcome for those who serve him and for those who do not: "Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is. . . . Happy are those who wash their robes, that the authority to go to the trees of life may be theirs and that they may gain entrance into the city by its gates. Outside are the dogs and those who practice spiritism and the fornicators and the murderers and the idolaters and everyone liking and carrying on a lie."-Revelation 22:12-15.[Emphasis added]
*** Revelation Climax (1988) p.316 Ch.44 Revelation and You ***
6 Jehovah, the King of eternity, now addresses readers of Revelation for the last time in the prophecy, saying: "Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. Happy are those who wash their robes, that the authority to go to the trees of life may be theirs and that they may gain entrance into the city by its gates. Outside are the dogs and those who practice spiritism and the fornicators and the murderers and the idolaters and everyone liking and carrying on a lie."-Revelation 22:12-15.
*** Watchtower 1999 Dec 1 p.19 Be Happy Readers of the Book of Revelation ***
18 In the book of Revelation, Jesus announces several times: "I am coming quickly." (Revelation 2:16; 3:11; 22:7, 20a) He must yet come to execute judgment on Babylon the Great, Satan's political system, and on all humans who refuse to submit to Jehovah's sovereignty, as now expressed by the Messianic Kingdom. We join our voices with that of the apostle John, who exclaimed: "Amen! Come, Lord Jesus."-Revelation 22:20b.19 Jehovah himself states: "Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is." (Revelation 22:12) While awaiting the glorious reward of life without end as a part of either the promised "new heaven" or the "new earth," may we zealously join in extending the invitation to all honesthearted people: "'Come!' And let anyone thirsting come; let anyone that wishes take life's water free." (Revelation 22:17) May they also become happy readers of the inspired and inspiring book of Revelation![Emphasis added]
The reason they have to keep shifting back & forth is because sometimes they read the next verse which speaks of the Alpha Omega and sometimes they don't because Jesus couldn't possibly be the A/O, the first and last, the beginning & end because this is supposed to be Jehovah, the almighty. But if you read Rev 1:18 this 1st/last was dead, so this could not be Jehovah. Sticky wicket. Notice right off the bat in the first chapter of this long story the writer distinguishes the Alpha/O, 1st/last, beginning/end, then sums up and confirms at the end. Only Who's Who? The FDS do NOT know, therefore either does the rank & file.
Refiners fire:
Give me a scripture. Bible book, Chapter, verse, in refutation of my original contentions in this thread. So that I can read it, in context, and see if it is correct.
Previously you said: "That passage of scripture is not related to the discussion of Resurrection in Revelation 20." That indicats that you at that time recognized that I quoted from the Scriptures, otherwise you wouldn't have had the occasion to accuse me of citing irrelevant verses at random. Now, though, you want to pretend that because I didn't tell you which Bible book, chapter, and verse, that for that reason your alternative accusation that I never quote scripture is also valid.
The fact of the matter is that Jesus never cited chapter and verse for the simple reason that they hadn't been invented yet, and he usually didn't even cite the book he was quoting from because he expected his Jewish listeners to be acquianted with the Hebrew text. He did on occasion refer to the writings of Moses or Isaiah by name, but usually he simply quoted verses at random. The same is true of my dealings with apostate Dubs. Which is why I chose the screen name of "You Know" in the first place, because many of you do know the Scriptures, superficially at least when it suites you. Obviously, you knew the verse I was quoting about the dead burying their dead. You at least knew that it wasn't in Revelation and so that's why you accused me of quoting scriptures out of context. The fact is though, You could have easily referenced it if you had wanted to. You are being hypocritical and dishonest, and you are twisting the Scriptures. Really though, you are only making yourself appear ignorant and deceptive and extremely petty. / You Know
You know.
the scripture doesn't say that they are resurrected after the thousand s years have ended.
The scripture says;
"The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended".
Well ,you know, if you say they are not the same thing. Fine.
So far you have not directly quoted a SINGLE scriptureThere is my original quote re you not quoting scripture.
I seem to recal making a coment in another thread awhile back addressing this issue, stating that I had the understanding that "This System of Things" would not actually "END" until after the Tousand Year Rein. But I think I was ignored.
Interesting argument.
Artful.
Also, could you tell me where the bible says that those of the 2nd resurrection would be judged on what they did during the 1,000 years, rather than what they did in their life as Rev 20 and John 5:29 seems to indicate?
Right on. The scripture in John very clearly gives that indication.
Yet another evidence of the error of the Witness interpretation.
Will power.
Bugger me drunk!!
That is a classic sequence of quotes.
Id never noticed that before.
Well done.
RF:
Just to add to your arsenal, you really should use the Greek more.
The word "again" used in Rev.20:5 is Anazao, and is also found in Romans 14:9 with regards to Christ resurrection.
It is parsed as follows:
Ana - again
Zao - to live
ton nekron ou anazan eos teleson ta xilia eth
the dead not again-lived until complete the thousand years
Great thread, btw.
