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NeverKnew

Are Abraham, Isaac and Jacob returning to Earth or Heaven?

Lore

Earth. Because they died before the ransom which is what allowed humans to become annointed.

*** w11 6/1 p. 12 Do All Faithful Christians Go to Heaven? ***

Note Jesus’ thought-provoking statement: “No man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.” (John 3:13) This implies that faithful worshippers in the past, such as Noah, Abraham, Moses, and David, had not gone to heaven. (Acts 2:34) Where, then, did they all go? In brief: The faithful of old are in the grave, sleeping in death, unconscious, awaiting resurrection.—Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6; Acts 24:15.

Londo111

Same comment.

In the JW view: Earth; nobody had the heavenly hope until Pentecost 33, and since then only the 144000 anointed go to heaven.

NeverKnew

I love you guys....

On the phone now asking really hard questions of someone about Matthew 8:11

Lore

This is of course ignoring Jesus parable showing Abraham in heaven.

And the transmogrification or whatever where Moses and Abraham appeared to talk to Jesus in front of some of the apostles.

Edit: My bad! Abraham was not in the Transfiguration. That was Moses and Elijah.

Basically if Abraham is not in heaven, Jesus really went out of his way to make us think he is. And yet the watchtower is like: "Nah, everything in the bible is figurative except the flood."

Londo111

And never forget Hebrews 11:16 in such a discussion.

NeverKnew

Good one... noted. We're at an impasse. He's trying to pull back... I haven't told him what the WT says his position should be....

prologos

they use Math. 11:11 to draw the line for heaven with john the baptist. and Acts 2:34 "-- David did not ascend--"

but if the bible had one author, there would be no ambiguity.

Lore BTW; the ransom merely returns "perfection" gods favor, buys back what was lost (in eden). --"annointed" in the WT sense means called to reign with Crist. that is the domain of the KINGDOM COVENANT, not the ransom new covenant. Those that have perfection imputed by virtue of the ransom, can then SACRIFICE* that restored RIGHT to everlasting life ON EARTH to be uplifted. REVelation book page 100 paragraph 4.

These ideas are hidden in their publication and untangle somewhat the mystery of the "annointed". but

if you dont believe in talking snakes, donkeys, spare-rib cloned ladies, walking on water, all this is raelly only showing how wrong this all is.

no currency in the current teaching. * jesus sarificed his right to continue everlastingly ON THE EARTH. the second Adam

Lore

On the subject of Jesus using a parable about Hell and Abraham being alive in Heaven.

Why would he use that illustration if he didn't want us to believe in Hell and think Abraham was alive in Heaven?

None of his other illustrations were based entirely on fiction? He used real stuff, like Samaritans, Farming, Birds, Slaves, Kings, Weeds.

But this ONE time he decided to use a false teaching to make a point about doing the right thing?

Ask a modern witness if it would be acceptable to go on the platform and use a story about Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer to teach people the importance of accepting differences.

What would happen if a brother gave a public talk using Santa as an illustration? He'd never be allowed to give talks again.

And yet the witnesses claim that Jesus used hellfire and the immortal soul in a parable. But it was all completely fictional? And Jesus didn't bother saying that it was fictional?

NeverKnew

Off the phone. We were talking about Beth Sarim's Deed. He was able to tell me about what he'd learned in the Proclaimer's book. I asked him if they mentioned Beth Shan. He said, "I'm pretty sure it'd be in there." I then asked what the current teaching was with respect to these men from the OT... he shot back, "well, they sold the property so what's that tell you?" I said, "It doesn't tell me whether you believe these folks are going to be in heaven or on Earth."

He danced around the topic for 3-4 minutes before I pinned him down with, "Look, if the Creator was sitting in front of you and asked you where HE said the men would be, what would your answer be?" FINALLY I got "in heaven."

He then acquiesed to my having a more solid foundation of the history of the organization and the evolution of "adjustments"... blah blah blah... Thanks to you, I had my answer 10 minutes before he stepped in that pile of doo-doo he was shoveling towards me!

I responded cooly, "maybe you should take a peek at your WT from June, 2011 to learn more about what your doctrines are then get back to me. We better get to bed. I love you."

I really wish I could have snuck Hebrews in there... I'm sure he'll pick the topic back up within the next few days. He'll get doused with Luke 13:28 and Hebrews 11:16.

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