Revelation 14:3 Who sings the new song???????

by label licker 50 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  nibbled

  Thanks label licker for pointing this out. I downloaded the Revelation book pdf to check it out and it's a marvel. Another point to ask my parents about. My parents have moved from attempting to answer my questions to basically ignoring me, but I'm hoping that one day they'll have had enough with the strange points to searching for the truth. I had never realized that they identify the elders with the 144,000, and it of course makes no sense as the elders are in heaven before the bride arrives.

  Lars the song of Moses that is sang is not noted as being limited to the 144,000 alone, specifically. Also there are those in the earliest memory of the scriptures which sang the same song, see Ex 15:1; Dt 31:22 .

  Band on the Run I'm a New Yorker subscriber, I'll have to see if I still have the March 2012 issue at home. I wanted to say that I agree with you, and Elaine, that it is a coded message which details events in that time, similar to the message of Matthew 24 which depicted events to come before the generation who stood before Christ would pass away—and a generation is defined in scripture as 40 years. Right on time, 70 CE. I am curious however to your feelings on what is left in our life, after recognizing that the events of 70CE and Nero?

  As I personally understand the Word, he left us a pattern to recognize. His words of Matthew 24 were fulfilled in the first century at the end of the Jewish system of things, so that the Jewish Christians might be fortified by faith in the word of the Word, that what he spoke was true. Imagine how quickly faith in the Christ as the Messiah could have faltered had there been no first century fulfillment. However, while the congregation recognized the events of Matthew 24 in 70CE, all the events of Daniel were not fulfilled, leaving us still seeking more to come. Then came the Revelation which, written after 70CE, depict the things to come that were revealed to Daniel. Again, similar to Matthew 24, Revelation both applied to that generation, but also to those today—we at the end of the Christian system of things. Interestingly to be Christian is to be, as opposed to the Jews, without law—lawless. We, and the first century Christians, live in the Christian system, without law, and overshadowed by the man of lawlessness whose mystery was already at work way back then, but is close to being revealed as we await his return which does just that. The apostles died, and as soon as they were away (relatively speaking) Christendom was born. The kingdom of the false Christ. Where he said that he was our head, and our mediator, and no one can come to the father except through him, Christendom stands in his place. Revelation opens with letters direct to the congregations, yet today the majority of Christians are within denominations and accept instruction only by means of men who claim to be the only ones with access to the communication of Christ.

  As I mentioned before, I'd to discuss Revelation with you! I've studied it from so many aspects, and generally people are turned off by the book, or are focused on certain points as opposed to understanding the book as a whole. I'm hoping you'll forgive my ill chosen words earlier and take me up and a meaty discussion?

  You mentioned seven or so books you've read, would you recommend any in addition to Elaine's?
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  AGuest

  Lars the song of Moses that is sang is not noted as being limited to the 144,000 alone, specifically. Also there are those in the earliest memory of the scriptures which sang the same song, see Ex 15:1; Dt 31:22 .

  Greetings, dear Nibbled, and peace to you! I am SO glad you made the above comment. I posted elsewhere on this site where I understood that the WTBTS teaching that the 144,000 are singing "as if a NEW song" is an error. It is not a new song to ISRAEL... but as IF a new song to these "from among the sons of Israel"... because they had not previously MASTERED it, as ALL of Israel SHOULD have. Unfortunately, I cannot point you to the thread - I truly do not keep track of what I post; I simply put it out there (cast my bread, as it were).

  But thank YOU... for your truth on this! Also, thank you for the truth that Moses wasn't a Jew; he was a Levite (Exodus 2:1), actually, which is why the priesthood had to be chosen from among the Levites: the first high priest was his brother, Aaron, a Levite.

  Peace!

  YOUR servant and a doulos of Christ,

  SA
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  RubaDub

  When I read that they were the only ones to master the song, I always wondered if they were just lip-syncing.

  Rub a Dub
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  Lozhasleft

  Oh, what can one do. I must do further research an dig deeper yet anyone can post any crap that comes into their minds. First, I have spent countless hours reading Revelation itself. I did so for the first time in college and after law school, where the training in textual emphasis certainly helped me. Over the decades, I have read about seven books on Revelation itself and have read many, many such discussions of Revelation in general Bible/New Testament books

  Band, have you thought of ASKING in faith? Shouldn't we go to the highest authority for the answers to these truths? Why would we go to less?

  Loz x
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  Band on the Run

  Nibbled,

  In a normal forum, I would only mention that I read some books and took a few courses b/c of a childhood interest. I simply cannot understand why anyone would deny themselves useful information. It is also beyond me how Jesus would choose to isolate us. Also, I have friends of different religions and can not begin to believe that Christ would exclude them.

  In a university town or city people have common references and values. This forum is very broad, which is not a big thing in itself.

  There is no way I can endorse many parts of the Bible if it is the literal word of God. Of course, I believe it is a guide. It seems not rational that God would confine his activity to the first century and disappear.

  Pagels taught this in class when I was a junior. I wanted to cry. It brought such freedom. B/c I wanted to be accepted at law school, my grade point average and finishing the requirements of a Politcal Science major left me with little time to expand my reading or thinking. One day I thought to viist Union Theological Seminary and see what was stocked in their bookstore. I left with a tome, Beckwith, The Apocalypse of John. Unlike Pagels new book, he went into depth on each verse. The book seemed endless. Even tho I could not read Greek, I read the comments and debates concerning translation in Englilsh. Every footnote was read. To this day, I don't know how Beckwith rates with other historians.

  I truly don't want to get into a detailed discussion of Revelation. Revelation is the motherlode for the Witnesses, along with other obscure prophecies. They love their unknowable prophecies more than their good news gospels. I was a small child when I was first exposed to Revelation. It is not an appropriate book to expose to young children.

  After so many decades, my prime interests are Paul's genuine letters and the gospels, esp. John, which is theology. It seems to me that Christians should focus on Christ, not YHWH. Secondary interests are mysticism and church history. I adore Merton's edition of Wisdom of the Desert. During school, I was forced against my interest to read The Imitation of Christ, attributed to Thomas a Kempis. I find it revoluting on the surface but when I read it, I felt great peace.

  My favorite book about Jesus, other than John's gospel, is The Last Temptation of Christ, which was written to emphasize Jesus' humanity. I believe there is also an interesting D.H. Lawrence short story.

  Job, minus the opening narrative about the wager between God and Satan, moved me greatly. Jung's work, The Answer to Job, truly had an impact on me.

  Oh, I wept with joy and freedom afte reading C.S. Lewis' Screwtape Letters. Lewis is special to me. So is Madeleine L'Engle. She helped keep me alive by her gracious support during a terrible period of my life.

  I would love to share these viewpoints with others. Being part of a communith of questioners appeals to me. It is amazing to see people grappling with Christian and acknowleding there is no absolute truth.

  Another reason not to get bogged down in Revelation is knowledge is important. My character and how I live in community are perhaps more important. Altho I know I am not stupid, I don't view myself or others as the sole channel of Christ. Once I was little kid. I am a grown up now.

  Whenever Christians' believe there interpretatin of God is absolutely correct, horror arrives with the view. Witch trials, the Inquistion, the forcible expulsion of Jews, the Holocaust, and countless pogroms. It is a shameful past.
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  AGuest

  It is not an appropriate book to expose to young children.

  Nor most adults, obviously, as can be seen by the many books postulating on it (Ecclesiastes 12:12), particularly the WTBTS' "Revelation, It's Grand Climax AtHand!" Book. What a travesty that!

  Sadly, the Revelation... well, the visions, etc., IN it... is what got John arrested and imprisoned on Patmos in the first place. During the time he related it to the Apostles, older men, Paul, etc., it was against the law to speak of such things. So he had to tell them in secret. And Paul wasn't able to recount it to others, for fear of being arrested and imprisoned, if not put to death. (2 Corinthians 12:4). BUT... the time came, and John was told to write what he been given many years before, as well as what he being given at the moment, and would be given after that... and send it out to the "7" congregations. Per my Lord, these "7" congregation actually represented ALL of the congregations at the time, but due to the danger John was directed to address as he did... for the safety of those who would receive it; it was done that way to obscure those to whom it was really being sent. In order for these to ACCEPT it, though, as FROM God/Christ... because it was some pretty "different" stuff from what they had heard before, the visions of Ezekiel, Isaiah, Enoch, and others notwithstanding... he had to (1) identify himself, and (2) identify who he received it FROM. The first would prove to his audience that it was FROM Christ himself... and thus by holy spirit... which for some of them would require that it was "Apostle"-approved. These two things would ensure for them that even if what was depicted was STRANGE... it was TRUTH.

  And it was FOR those very letters, specifically because of the "revelation" that accompanied them (which things were considered "sorcery" and the like and was against the law)... that John was turned in to the authorities and imprisoned ON Patmos: "wicked men from among [them]" used these letters to turn him in to the authorities. (Revelation 2:9, 15, 20; 3:9)

  I say "letters" because they did not originally appear as they do in the Bible canon; John was told to... and did... address separate letters to each of the "7" congregations, which included the "Revelation" - what was stated BEFORE the letters and what was stated after. So, for example, the "congregation in Laodicea" did not get the same "greeting" message from Christ as, say, the "congregation in Thyatira." Indeed, the "congregation in Laodicea" was SEVERAL congregations... those that were exhibiting the traits in the greeting to "them." Same with "Pergamum," "Sardis," "Ephesus" and so on.

  And there was good reason for this: love. Had he sent each the information concerning the other, there would have been GREAT division. Because those who were reprimanded would have felt "smarted" by the stinging discipline (Revelation 2:4, 5, 14, 16, 20; 3:3, 15-18)... and perhaps lost their joy... while those who were "commended" (Revelation 2:2, 6, 13, 19, 24; 3:4, 8, 10) might have let it cause them to "lord it over," perhaps even judge the others. So, my Lord followed his own "law" (Matthew 18:15) when he dictated to John what was to go in the GREETING to each "congregation," separately. It presents the way it does NOW because those who compiled the canon merely combined them all into one - why canonize many different letters that all said pretty much the same thing, except as to its address to the pertninent "congregation"?

  Unfortunately, some letters had additional dicta/commentary in that, as presented today, seem out of place. For example Revelation 16:15. The TRUTH, though, is that it's not even in the strict ORDER in which John saw the visions... OR wrote of them... in some places. It's in an order that made sense to those who canonized it... which, as a result, DOESN'T make sense in several places. Which is why it is hard to understand and translate... let alone interpret.

  Even so, even in accurate order, the last (interpretation) belongs to God... who granted it to Christ... who "opens" it to whomever HE wishes (Luke 24:27, 32, 44, 45), not just anyone who is "peering into" it (1 Peter 1:12). Just as some of the first century Body were allowed to understand things written by the Prophets that even THEY (the Prophets who wrote them - Isaiah 8:14-16; 25:10-12; Daniel 12:4, 9) didn't know... the same has been occurring since.

  A doulos of Christ,

  SA
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  Band on the Run

  It must be so much hard work to make all this stuff up. I can see your template - WT literature.
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  AGuest

  I'm not afraid to respond to... and so don't skirt... serious and intelligent questions directed at me. I may not know the answers... but I know from Whom to get them. Which is no work at all, actually. I just ask... listen... and then put faith in what he tells me. Not hard, at all. You should try it.

  A doulos of Christ,

  SA
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  nibbled

  Um, so another point that I suppose I didn't make as clear as I could have, I'm not certain that the song of Moses (15:3) is the same as the new song (14:3)—Lars raised the song of Moses and I was pointing out that the song of Moses isn't new (and not the same song nor same singers). Also the original language does indicate a new song (14:3) for the 144,000 despite the "as if" rendered by some translations. The new song of the 144k (14:3) is clearly 144k only. The great multitude who also sing multiple times in heaven and compose the "all nations" part of the "bought" to be "priests and kings", which using the descriptive of (15:3) the singers would recall for us those of Rev 20:4,5. We know that the 144k all die in service (lmk if I should clarify that. It's regarding drinking bridal cup...) and we know that not all will be dead who go to heaven but some will be transformed in a twinkle. I personally feel this scripture clarifies Rev 20:4,5, where all those in heaven are described with the first resurrection.

  I'm on my iPhone so I'll wait to respond to Band's post. Band, just know I am not religious, not in association with JW/WT (not DF/DA though), and believe that the scriptures are the Word of God, and the "bible" is the most fascinating book I've ever read. (And still interested in your thoughts.)

  AGuest, where did you get your info you wrote in that post?? That's all news to me.
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  AGuest

  Um, so another point that I suppose I didn't make as clear as I could have, I'm not certain that the song of Moses (15:3) is the same as the new song (14:3)—Lars raised the song of Moses and I was pointing out that the song of Moses isn't new (and not the same song nor same singers). Also the original language does indicate a new song (14:3) for the 144,000 despite the "as if" rendered by some translations.

  I hear you, dear Nibbled (peace to you!). It IS a new song for the 144,000... but not for Israel. ALL of Israel SHOULD have known it and sang it (i.e., had it in their hearts), but their adulterous ways caused them to forget/leave off from it. When the 144,000 sing it, THEY are singing it new for THEM... but it is not a new song. They are SINGING it... as IF it were a new song.

  The new song of the 144k (14:3) is clearly 144k only.

  Yes. As these are solely from among the sons of Israel; the great multitude is not, at least not solely.

  The great multitude who also sing multiple times in heaven and compose the "all nations" part of the "bought" to be "priests and kings", which using the descriptive of (15:3) the singers would recall for us those of Rev 20:4,5.

  I am not sure what you mean here. Along with the 144,000... those of the great multitude made up those of Revelation 20:4, 5.

  We know that the 144k all die in service (lmk if I should clarify that. It's regarding drinking bridal cup...) and we know that not all will be dead who go to heaven but some will be transformed in a twinkle.

  That latter part is true; however, not all of the 144k die in service. Those who belonged to Christ but have died by the time he returns are resurrected, at the same time as those who belonged to him but have NOT died are transformed.

  I personally feel this scripture clarifies Rev 20:4,5, where all those in heaven are described with the first resurrection.

  YES! It does. But it involves both those of Israel (the 144,000)... AND those of the great crowd. These are ONE flock to Christ, a kingship and royal priesthood. The first (144k) are those from Israel who are sealed in order to protect the promise made to Abraham. The others are from EVERY nation, tribe, etc., who replace UNFAITHFUL Israel (who were SUPPOSED to make up the people for a special possession and holy nation)... in God's kingdom. Romans 11:25

  I'm on my iPhone so I'll wait to respond to Band's post. Band, just know I am not religious, not in association with JW/WT (not DF/DA though), and believe that the scriptures are the Word of God, and the "bible" is the most fascinating book I've ever read.

  I agree the Bible is fascinating, but it's not the Word of God, dear one. God only has one Word, which some parts of the Bible point TO:

  John 1:1, 14

  John 8:32, 36

  John 14:6; 17:17; Hebrews 13:12

  Revelation 19:15

  John 5:39, 40; 7:37, 38

  AGuest, where did you get your info you wrote in that post?? That's all news to me.

  I received it from the One who called and chose me, dear one, and granted me holy spirit (John 20:22, 23; Acts 2:1-4, 17, 18), the spirit of truth, by means of which I am led by that One into ALL truth (John 14:26; 16:13-15). He is the HOLY One of Israel and Holy Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:17), JAHESHUA (probably known to you as "Jesus", a Greek misrendering), the Son and Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah, which you probably state as "Messiah"). JAH, is JaHVeH (which you've probably seen as "YHWH")... the MOST High God and MOST Holy One of Israel (Psalm 68:4; Proverbs 9:10; 30:3; Luke 8:28; Acts 16:17; Hebrews 7:1).

  I listen to that One's voice, dear Nibbled... and by that let HIM lead me (John 10:1-5, 27; Matthew 17:51 John 2:26-28).

  I hope that helps.

  Again, peace to you!

  YOUR servant and a doulos (slave) of Christ (Acts 2:18; Romans 7:6; Revelation 19:10; 22:9),

  SA